Entry 274, on 2006-01-24 at 14:26:46 (Rating 4, Comments)
I have recently been reading a book called "Evolution and the Modern Christian". Its designed to show that strict Biblical creationism is true, and modern scientific theories which contradict it are wrong. The person who lent it to me realised it was unlikely to convert me to Christianity, and he was right.
I always get a bit upset (hence the need to blog about it) after reading this type of book because its just so full of incorrect information, out of date theories, misunderstandings, and just plain lies. Many of the points which seem to contradict evolution have been answered years ago, and yet the creationists continue to use them. I guess its like Goebbels (Nazi Germany propaganda minister) said: tell a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth.
One of their favourite pieces of "evidence against evolution" is the lack of transitional fossils. Its just not true. There are many transitional fossils which cannot be interpreted in any other reasonable way. Yet the creationists (and many intelligent designers, who are really just a more subtle form of creationist) just cannot accept that they exist.
Here's an imaginary debate between a scientist and creationist which illustrates the point (thanks to Graviton for the idea)...
Creationist: Evolution is clearly not true.
Evolutionist: Why do you say that?
Creationist: There is no evidence supporting evolution.
Evolutionist: What about transitional fossils?
Creationist: But there aren't any.
Evolutionist: Have you seen archaeopteryx, whale transition fossils, etc?
Creationist: They aren't real transitional forms.
Evolutionist: Scientists think they are, what evidence do you have that the aren't.
Creationist: There's plenty of evidence. Read this book about creationism by a real scientist.
Evolutionist: If he's a real scientist with evidence against evolution, why didn't he publish it in scientific journals?
Creationist: Because they are all biased, and want to support evolution even though they know its not true.
Evolutionist: So you are saying there is a global conspiracy to support evolution against creationism?
Creationist: Yes.
Evolutionist: So you wouldn't accept any scientific evidence, because it might be part of this conspiracy?
Creationist: That's right.
Evolutionist: So it doesn't really matter what scientific evidence is discovered, you will still believe creationism?
Creationist: I would accept it if it supported creationism, but scientists won't let people see that sort of evidence.
Evolutionist: So you won't believe in a scientific theory no matter how much evidence is produced to support it.
Creationist: I've decided what I want to believe. Please don't confuse me with the facts.
OK, I know a creationist wouldn't really make that last statement. But that is effectively what it is all about! And if they are so close minded that they aren't prepared to change their beliefs when new evidence is produced then they are really just fooling themselves.
I mean, do they really believe that almost all modern science is wrong? For creationism to be true, scientists working in fields such as biology, astronomy, geology, physics, chemistry, archaeology, and many others would all have to be wrong. And the millions of pieces of independent evidence would have to be false. What's more likely: all of that is untrue, or an ancient book mostly written by primitive tribes (the Bible) is untrue? I think we all know the answer to that!
Evolutionist is not necessarily supposed to be an atheist.
Personally, I find it hard to believe in either THEORY. If God/Gods created us then where are they? ( I do believe in him...) And if we evolved out of monkeys, why are there still monkeys? This debate will go on for a very long time, and I do not see an end to it any time soon, though I want someone to wins! cause I hate when people fight for something as stupid as this!
Comment 2 by OJB on 2006-01-24 at 16:53:53:
You are demonstrating some ignorance in your reply. You emphasise the word "theory" as if that is a lesser thing in some way. In science a theory is a well supported hypothesis which has wide support.
You also mention the old "why are there still monkeys" thing. That is very naive. First, we didn't evolve from monkeys. In fact we, and other modern primates, evolved from a common ancestor. You are doing exactly what I complained about in the original post: using arguments which have been totally discredited many years ago.
Comment 3 by Sean on 2006-04-07 at 21:58:26:
The trouble I have with any notion of creationism is that it merely tries to explain the origin of human beings on this planet and universe. It generally ignores the fact that animals consist of far more of life on this planet than do we mere advanced primates.
In fact, the bible (note the use of lower case b) neglects to mention insects in either of the creation stories in Genesis. Strange considering that if God did create every thing he managed to neglect passing on to the writers of the bible any information about such creatures. Perhaps he was so excited about creating man it slipped his mind when he was passing it on to the authors of the book.
Comment 4 by OJB on 2006-04-07 at 22:08:39:
Well in Genesis 1 24, God creates "creeping things", so I guess that covers insects. And don't forget that Leviticus Chapter 11 mentions those famous four legged insects! Of course, there so many errors in Genesis, whether insects are mentioned or not doesn't make that much difference.
Comment 5 by Jesus Loves Me on 2007-03-01 at 15:46:42:
I am a strong Christian. I believe that Christianity is completely true and that it takes a strong person with faith to be able to follow such a great and Holy God that did create us. Many scientists have tried to find errors in the Bible (and yes, I did capitilize that) and failed. Please check your facts. Well, anyway, what I do not understand about evolutionists is that you are all trying to look for an answer about how the world was created, when it is already typed up for us to read and it is so easy just to give your life to this wonderful God. It is a free gift, just take it.
Okay, let me say what I think about your life... So, you are trying to find the way earth was created. Great, you came up with evolution. Good job, pat on the back. Next you want to write a book. Next year, it is written and it is a best seller. High five. Alright, now you get the noble [sic] prize and everything. Yipee. So, after you accomplished all of that, what are you going to do now that you are 99 years old and are about to die. When you die, you go to hell.
Now Christians, on the other hand, live a life following a higher being that loves and cares for us. We have a goal in life and something to look foward to when we die. We go to heaven to worship God.
What I do not understand is that you guys are searching so hard for something that is already there for you to accept, no hard work needed. It is a gift from God and He is waiting for you to recieve it. I am just asking you to reconsider what you believe in and have a hope. Have something to look forward to when you die. Because when you die, it won't matter what you did on earth if you didn't devote yourself to God. All you are going to do is go to Hell. It is the truth. Accept it.
I am almost in high-school and God has already changed my life. Just let Him change yours. He loves you.
A Christian that believes there is still hope for you. (Psalms 91:14-16)
Comment 6 by Questions on 2007-03-01 at 15:51:25:
I have a question: How come Christians don't believe in how the earth was created according to evolution. I need a fact to support that!
Here is another question: Let's say I wanted to become a Christian... how would I do it? Is it hard?
Troubled and lost person who is lost in the world of sinners.
Comment 7 by Answer on 2007-03-01 at 15:55:14:
Hello! I am a Christian wanting to answer your questions...
A really strong question that I have to disprove evolution is if the earth was created by a little piece of matter floating and spinning in the sky, where did that little piece of matter come from?
If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior you need to...
- Admit that you are a sinner
- Accept that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and that He loves you.
- Say a prayer admitting that you are a sinner and that you would love to have Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and that He is God!
Those are just my answers to those questions of yours!
Comment 8 by OJB on 2007-03-01 at 17:25:50:
To answer the points made in the last 3 entries (which were clearly from the same person)...
1. There are many errors in the Bible. For example, I have listed the problems with Genesis here. Please tell me why I'm wrong, then we can move on.
2. Pretending heaven exists won't make it magically appear when you die. I want to know what's really true, not what I wish was true.
3. I have met very few Christians who know anything about evolution. If they did, and were honest with themselves, I think they would have to accept that its true.
4. Jesus Christ... accept into my life... blah blah... not interested!
Comment 9 by Anonymous on 2007-03-02 at 12:51:43:
Here are some things I want to tell you...
1. Okay, when you go to Hell, I want you to remember this conversation and you are going to wish that you listened to me.
2. Your little Genesis problems that you listed are opinionated and also, when did you ever do the work? Eh? Maybe the scientist, because we are sinners, "tricked you" and gave you the wrong information. Go out and figure it out yourself before you put your faith into something.
3. I do know something about evolution just to let you know. I have been studying it and researching it for a long time.
4. Not interested, eh? Well, let me tell you something. When you go to Hell I think you will wish you were interested.
5. I want you to answer this question... If the earth was made by a spinning piece of matter, where did this little piece of matter come from? The last evolutionist that I asked that question to said..."There are many problems with the Bible, and we will soon get the technology to find that out." I just hope you can support your answer and not be so defensive like you always are.
5. Have fun.
Comment 10 by OJB on 2007-03-02 at 17:29:02:
Have you heard of Pascal's Wager? He said we should accept the reality of Christianity because if it isn't true we are no worse off, but if it is we can at least get into heaven. But surely god would know if I'm just pretending or whether I really believe?
I'm afraid I can't believe without evidence, and there is no evidence. I could pretend to believe, but where would that get me? Surely you can't fool God. If God wanted us to believe something which is contradicted by all the evidence why did he give us the power of reason?
You seem to be suggesting a huge conspiracy where scientists are tricking us into believing something that isn't true. I generally find that when someone has to invoke a conspiracy theory they have run out of real evidence and are resorting to desperate tactics!
If you know so much about evolution go to my evolution pages and show me where I'm wrong by adding something to the comment system.
The Earth formed from a nebula which was the result of the Big Bang. The Big Bang created space and time about 13.7 billion years ago. before that there was no space, time, or matter. The Big Bang was possibly a quantum effect which requires no cause, but this is highly speculative.
Comment 11 by Anonymous on 2007-03-03 at 10:32:37:
I agree with your first point. God would know. But, that means we shouldn't fake it. Well, I put that scientist comment in the wrong way, sorry about that. Anyway, how would the big bang require no cause? I don't really understand that portion of what you are trying to tell me.
Comment 12 by OJB on 2007-03-03 at 16:05:36:
I shouldn't fake believing in god, and I can't force myself to genuinely believe in him. Therefore your god is going to send me to hell. Isn't he supposed to be good?
There are many things that don't require a cause according to quantum physics, which is one of the most successful theories in modern physics. This really isn't that hard to believe.
Comment 13 by Anonymous on 2007-03-06 at 10:21:02:
God is very good, but it really isn't His decision. You really don't have to believe in this, it is just what I place all the faith I have in.
Well, anyway... as far as the quantum physics go, it may not be that hard to believe in but neither is Christianity.
Comment 14 by OJB on 2007-03-06 at 11:30:50:
There is no evidence to indicate god is good. If you have faith you can believe anything. For example, I could say I have faith that black is white, or hot is cold, or good is bad. Faith means nothing.
As far as the comparison between quantum physics and religion is concerned. We can confirm quantum physics theories through objective experiments. We can't demonstrate god exists through any objective means, in fact every experiment gives more evidence against him.
Comment 15 by Anonymous on 2007-03-06 at 12:45:04:
First off, I really didn't bring up the faith thing to offend you. Faith is truth to me, and I don't need some humanly made up definition for it.
Second of all, what experiments? When have you ever done these experiments on your own? The only way you can prove me wrong is by telling me yourself and stop depending on these people and depend on yourself. I have seen so many times people saying that religion is fiction and science is fact. Well, to tell you the truth. I think they are wrong. I honestly don't care what people think we believe in. I know it is truth and unless you, and yes I mean you not some random scientist, can tell me differently.
Comment 16 by OJB on 2007-03-06 at 14:37:46:
Faith is a word in a human language. Who else is going to define its meaning apart from a human? The critical attribute of faith is that it is strong belief without proof. That's the only definition I require.
I can't replicate most experiments, but I can confirm that some work. I am an amateur astronomer and I work in a University amongst scientists. I can read journals and see exactly the methodology used in experiments, and if other researchers have confirmed the results. I can see the practical results of science - this computer, for example.
You're just fooling yourself into believing a myth. Have a look at both sides of the story and apply the same level of criticism to both.
Comment 17 by Anonymous on 2007-03-06 at 15:23:43:
I am not fooling myself into a myth. You can believe that all you want, but you are not going to change my faith!
You need to do the same and also apply the same level of criticism to both. I have agreed with some points you have pulled out already. Have you? No. Don't be a hypocrite!
Comment 18 by OJB on 2007-03-06 at 15:37:31:
I will change my mind when someone shows me evidence which makes that necessary (and I have done that in the past). You have shown me no evidence at all, just some vague feeling you have that you are right. In my opinion faith equals ignorance. If you are determined that you will never change your mind you will always be ignorant. Good luck with that.
Comment 19 by Anonymous on 2007-03-07 at 09:37:10:
When will you ever change your mind? Just like I said before, you are a hypocrite!
Comment 20 by OJB on 2007-03-07 at 10:16:47:
I just told you I will change my mind when I see the evidence. Is that so hard to understand? I don't see how I am being hypocritical. I'm perfectly consistent in my opinions: just show me the evidence!
Comment 21 by Anonymous on 2007-03-11 at 13:07:32:
What I don't understand is that you have all the evidence you need in order to believe it! I don't see why you keep on trying to find out what created the earth! The answer is already written up! No work needed!
Comment 22 by OJB on 2007-03-11 at 14:39:36:
Oh, you're referring to the myths of ancient Greece? Zeus, and all the other Greek gods? Or maybe to Buddhist beliefs, or is it Hinduism - that's popular. There are plenty more too: Islam, traditional Chinese beliefs, traditional African, Judasim, etc. I even hear some people believe in Christianity! So many interesting mythologies, so hard to choose one.
Comment 23 by Anonymous on 2007-03-13 at 08:24:35:
Ha ha funny funny. I am honestly surprised that you, out of all people, would act and speak LIKE A CHILD! You need to GROW UP and smell the coffee with your "so called common sense." Act like an adult, not like my little sister.
Comment 24 by OJB on 2007-03-13 at 08:31:29:
I was just making the point that if you choose to believe in some sort of faith without applying any critical thinking then anything becomes possible. Is it really any less reasonable to believe in Hinduism, etc than Christianity? Obviously not, since billions of people do just that.
Comment 25 by Anonymous on 2007-03-13 at 08:50:13:
You completely missed my point. There are many reasons why I do not believe in other religions apart from Christianity. But, you really are not understanding what I am trying to tell you or what I have been trying to tell you. You are very hard-minded and just listen for a little while!
Comment 26 by JESUS IS REAL!!!!! on 2007-03-13 at 09:00:52:
Okay... the only proof needed for creationism is the BIBLE (notice its capitalized!). You and your so called proof of fossils, well sure I know that they are real, but that is only because GOD created them! Oh and by the way do NOT believe everything that you read...
Comment 27 by OJB on 2007-03-13 at 09:05:11:
You're not serious, surely. You're saying I should believe in creationism because the Bible says so, then you're saying don't believe everything I read. So which is it? Of course, I don't believe everything I read. I only believe stuff which can be backed up with facts. Show me the facts about creationism and then I'll believe it.
Comment 28 by Anonymous on 2007-03-13 at 09:08:55:
I agree with the points that JESUS IS REAL!!!! is saying. It takes alot of faith to believe in something so great! Okay.
Comment 29 by JESUS IS REAL!!!! on 2007-03-13 at 09:10:48:
Wow... youre probably enjoying yourself arent you... Alright then, you read the entire Bible, and I will let you know! Oh and seeing isnt believing (you dont need facts to prove everything you need faith)
By the way, my first blog wasn't well written and I apologize, but please take me seriously
Comment 30 by JESUS IS REAL!!!!! on 2007-03-13 at 09:17:15:
Thank you... anonymous, so what do you have to say OJB? OK
Comment 31 by OJB on 2007-03-13 at 09:19:23:
Why does it take a lot of faith to believe in something so great? If god, Jesus, etc are so great surely we can believe in them based on what we actually see. Why is faith necessary? Seems a bit suspicious to me. Like god isn't so great, maybe.
I will take you seriously when you show me the evidence. Just mindlessly repeating god is real, the Bible is true, etc, just shows me you have no real argument. And I have read quite a lot of the Bible, and other religious texts. I actually research things before I debate them!
Comment 32 by Anonymous on 2007-03-13 at 09:21:46:
I like what one person said on another blog of yours as a comment. Do you believe in atoms? You can't see them yet you "have faith" in them. Gosh. Please, please check your facts!
Comment 33 by Anonymous on 2007-03-13 at 09:28:24:
Wow. Sometimes I really wonder what you would do without science! You would go crazily searching for more "evidence!" I kind of feel bad for you.
Comment 34 by JESUS IS REAL!!!! on 2007-03-13 at 09:32:03:
Okay mister evolutionist... Number One, God is so great that we dont need proof. Number Two, let me point out that a theory is just an idea that many scientists agree upon. Number Three, I can understand where you are coming from, no proof, well that is kind of hard to believe.
Some evidence is that in the Bible, it says that Jesus came down to earth and told someone to write what he was saying...
Comment 35 by OJB on 2007-03-13 at 09:39:21:
Maybe you should check your facts. Using advanced instruments we can see atoms now. We can also detect them in many ways indirectly. We have good evidence that they exist. We don't have good evidence god exists. Why not?
Evidence in the Bible. Sorry, that's hard to take seriously. Why should I believe the Bible? because its the word of god. Why should I believe in god? because the Bible says I should. Ever heard a better circular argument?
Comment 36 by JESUS IS REAL!!!! on 2007-03-13 at 09:47:50:
Its "God". Please dont put down my faith in a disrespectful way, voice your opinions, and believe me I will read them and be open minded, but I will not put down what you believe in a disrespectful way either...
Comment 37 by JESUS IS REAL!!!! on 2007-03-13 at 10:01:57:
This is something that I found a long time ago... please read carefully... By the way, the person who wrote this used to be an atheist!!!
The Earth... its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6
2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information... did it come about just by chance? Was it merely biological causes, perfectly forming the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, structure? The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people. How does one explain the human brain?
3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.
The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?
Also, natural causes are an inadequate explanation for the amount of precise information contained in human DNA. A person who discounts God is left with the conclusion that all of this came about without cause, without design, and is merely good fortune. It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck.
4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.
This is not to say that if enough people believe something it is therefore true. Scientists, for example, have discovered new truths about the universe which overruled previous conclusions. But as science has progressed, no scientific discovery has countered the numerical likelihood of an intelligent mind being behind it all. In fact, the more science discovers about human life and the universe, the more complex and precisely designed we realize these to be. Rather than pointing away from God, evidence mounts further toward an intelligent source. But objective evidence is not all.
There is a much larger issue. Throughout history, billions of people in the world have attested to their firm, core convictions about God's existence--arrived at from their subjective, personal relationship with God. Millions today could give detailed account of their experience with God. They would point to answered prayer and specific, amazing ways God has met their needs, and guided them through important personal decisions. They would offer, not only a description of their beliefs, but detailed reports of God's actions in their lives. Many are sure that a loving God exists and has shown himself to be faithful to them. If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: "I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God"?
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, disillusioned people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.
I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.
I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."
Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.
He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."8 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."9
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.10
Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.
Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."11 This is God, in action.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."12
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.
by Marilyn Adamson
So here is your evidence, by the way there is no proof of the BIG BANG now is there, but if you do beleive it, do you actually think that sciencecould just create something so wonderful?
Comment 38 by OJB on 2007-03-13 at 10:34:16:
This is actually starting to look like the sort of evidence I've been asking for. Well done! Instead of just providing a quick response, I will read this carefully and get back to you later today.
Comment 39 by JESUS IS REAL!!!! on 2007-03-13 at 10:57:57:
Why thank you, I hope you gain some knowledge when you read this also, and hope you can understand why so many people belive in God and Jesus.
Comment 40 by OJB on 2007-03-13 at 13:21:09:
You say "the person who wrote this used to be an atheist". This proves nothing. I could find plenty of ex-believers who no longer believe in what they used to.
You then go on to list all the ways that the Earth seems perfect for life. There are two problems (at least) with this argument. First, life adapted to the conditions on Earth, so the fact that life and the conditions so closely match demonstrates evolution in action. Second, there are trillions of planets in the Universe. If it didn't happen here, it would happen somewhere else. So that argument is really irrelevant.
Then you say "The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it." Does it? Over 99% of biologists don't think so, and they should know. Have you ever heard of the "argument from personal incredulity"? Its a logical fallacy where a person doesn't believe something just because it doesn't seem likely to them. You need to look at this a bit more deeply than that.
Then you make statements like "natural causes are insufficient explanations" and "science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life". This is just not true. Life did come from non-life, and some experiments are beginning to show how. There is no reason to think that this couldn't happen.
You say "It is intellectually wanting to observe intricate design and attribute it to luck." Evolution isn't really just random luck though. Most of the genetic variability comes from random mutations, but the natural selection process is not random: its like a natural design process, because it actively accelerates beneficial change.
Then we have "To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God." We don't have to ignore this, but we do have to put it into context. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true. Look to history for examples of beliefs which everyone accepted, but were untrue. Real evidence is more important.
You ask "If you are a skeptic, can you say with certainty: I am absolutely right and they all are wrong about God?" No, I can't say that with absolute certainty, but I place objective evidence above personal beliefs, and rightly so. There are so many personal beliefs out there which are mutually incompatible. Which one should I choose?
Then there's more stuff about personal beliefs, but I've already said why that doesn't count for much.
Then there's some stuff about Jesus, but that means nothing until you can prove he even existed, and I've already shown that he probably didn't. Again, the objective evidence is what counts.
Next you say "God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him." But we can only believe in him if we turn off our critical faculties, and to do that we must already believe in him. Its another circular argument.
Finally there's the absurd statement "by the way there is no proof of the BIG BANG now is there". Ever heard of the cosmic microwave background, or red shift, helium abundance, etc. No proof, really?
Comment 41 by JESUS IS REAL!!! on 2007-03-14 at 04:36:42:
What I meant about the BIG BANG was that you didn't see it... but you have faith in it. It just goes back to the whole thing that you don't need facts and evidence to prove that something is true.
I can can understand why it's so hard to believe, because we DON'T have all of this proof like science does... but that's what's so powerful about it. You will never know what God is like until you experience Him. The evidence is PERSONAL evidence... YOU experience. THAT is some of the MOST FACTUAL evidence possible!!! YOU ARE FEELING AND EXPERIENCING THE EVIDENCE? DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT?
Christianity is not just a random idea created by human minds [like some religions and theories]. Christianity has an effect on people that no other religion can produce!
Comment 42 by OJB on 2007-03-14 at 08:28:21:
You're wrong again, we can see the Big Bang. That's what the microwave background is! Its got nothing to do with faith. The microwave background, and other observations, are both a facts and evidence.
Look at it from my perspective. You have this belief, which is very similar but contradictory, to other people's belief. You have no proof and every experiment performed to test your belief comes up negative. You believe in a book which has dozens of errors on the first page. You believe in a person with no conclusive historical support. You support a religion which says it believes in kindness but has been responsible for atrocities for 2,000 years. Now, you tell me why I should believe you!
Comment 43 by Goober on 2007-03-15 at 01:03:26:
Hey I like god.
Comment 44 by godlovesme77 on 2007-03-16 at 04:31:04:
Actually, you did not see THE big bang. You saw A "big bang." Yes... there is such thing as a "big bang", but that does not PROVE that it caused the earth to form. I understand how you could believe that the big bang was POSSIBLE, but there is not any PROOF that the big bang theory is 100% true. There is no material evidence... or that I know of. If you can SHOW ME evidence of the big bang, show it to me and then i'll believe you.
Comment 45 by OJB on 2007-03-16 at 07:50:35:
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about! Go and do some research and stop embarrassing yourself like this. Start here. When we see the microwave background we see the Big Bang. Is that not good enough evidence for you? I think we both know that it doesn't matter what I show you because you've made up your mind what you want to be true and the facts are irrelevant to you.
Comment 46 by godlovesme77 on 2007-03-16 at 08:39:13:
As I JUST said, you did NOT see THE big bang!!!!! that is NOT enough evidence for me.
Comment 47 by OJB on 2007-03-16 at 09:16:51:
The microwave background displays the exact characteristics we would expect for a Big Bang as predicted by our models. The theory of what we should see and the actual discovery were independent. If the microwave background isn't the "light" from the Big Bang, then what is it?
If we examine galaxies' motion we see them receding. The further apart they are, the faster they move apart. Run this expansion backwards and we get zero size about 13.7 billion years ago. That's the same time as the Big Bang was predicted. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Look at the abundance of elements in the Universe. If the Big Bang is true we would expect about 10% Helium. Guess what. That's exactly what we see. Maybe that's just coincidence too, but I don't think so.
Those are the three best bits of evidence for the Big Bang. Do you want to tell me why they aren't good enough now?
Comment 48 by JESUS IS REAL!!! on 2007-03-16 at 10:51:31:
Ughhhh! you are so hard headed and stubborn! You have to challenge everything that I try to tell you... Its like i am talking to a wall with attitude. You don't seem to try and understand what I am trying to tell you! You just want to believe what you want!
Comment 49 by OJB on 2007-03-16 at 11:16:53:
You're right, I do challenge everything, but I can be easily convinced. All I need is evidence. I am totally open to any new idea if the evidence supports it. Is there something wrong with that?
Instead of saying something meaningless like "ugh", why don't you answer my question. What actually is wrong with the evidence for the Big Bang I have given you?
Comment 50 by Anonymous on 2007-03-17 at 04:26:12:
I've read what you and that other person just discussed, but i think you both are a little hard headed. Both of you didn't listen to each other. Try listening next time, the both of you. Now, what IS the big bang? How do you know it happend?
Comment 51 by JesusROCKS!!!! on 2007-03-17 at 04:27:33:
Isn't the scientific theory a THEORY?
Comment 52 by JESUS IS REAL!!! on 2007-03-17 at 04:31:25:
The thing that is wrong with the evidence is that we know that there is such thing as a big bang, but that doesn't prove that the earth was formed from a "big bang"!!!!!!
Comment 53 by Umm on 2007-03-17 at 04:32:34:
Ugh is actually a word. Look it up in the dictionary. :)
Comment 54 by OJB on 2007-03-17 at 07:36:57:
The Big Bang was the event which formed space, time, matter and energy - in fact everything. Before the Big Bang there was nothing (not even space or time), after it we had a Universe. Pretty cool huh? Its like the creation event for scientists, except that we have evidence it actually happened.
The Earth wasn't formed in the Big Bang. The whole Universe was. The Earth was formed from the material made in the Big Bang but not until about 9 billion years later.
Yes, I know "ugh" is a word, but I didn't see how it really contributed much to the discussion! :(
By the way, no one has yet told me what is wrong with the evidence I listed in entry 47 above (you might need to click the "View All" button to see it)
Comment 55 by Anonymous on 2007-03-17 at 08:35:58:
Okay, I'm back after a week! Alrighty! I have a question for you OJB. What do you think about life in general? Just a simple question and I really do want you to answer this. I know that I have made some comments and you didn't reply to some of them. Just what do you think about life?
Comment 56 by OJB on 2007-03-17 at 08:38:37:
Is there any particularly meaningful question I haven't replied to? Just repeat it here and I'll give it a try. I'll have answer for the "life" question after I've thought about it a bit. By the way, I'm still waiting for an answer to why my evidence for the Big Bang isn't good enough.
Comment 57 by Anonymous on 2007-03-17 at 09:00:24:
Here are the questions:
I like what one person said on another blog of yours as a comment. Do you believe in atoms? You can't see them yet you "have faith" in them.
Sometimes I really wonder what you would do without science! You would go crazily searching for more "evidence!" Really, what would you do without science or evidence?
Those are my worthy questions.
Comment 58 by OJB on 2007-03-17 at 11:52:10:
I actually answered that one by saying that using modern microscope equipment we can see individual atoms, but even if we couldn't they can be detected indirectly and experiments can be designed to confirm or deny their existence.
Before science people still looked for answers in logical ways. The ancient Greeks were good at this, although they did make mistakes because they didn't have the self-correcting systems we now have in science. Evidence is not something that can disappear. Its like saying "what would you do without truth, or facts".
Comment 59 by OJB on 2007-03-17 at 11:58:29:
Here's my answer to the "life" question...
What do I think about life? A tricky question - both meaningless and full of meaning. I'm not sure I know exactly what sort of answer you want, but in the context of this debate I guess its to do with whether an atheist's life can have any meaning.
The first point I should make is that if all the evidence indicates our lives have no meaning then inventing a god to provide the missing meaning isn't really achieving anything. It might help some people who feel comforted by a convenient myth, but I would hope the people I am debating with here are more interested in the deeper truths.
As an atheist I don't have a god to provide meaning, so what's the point of life? Well, its up to the individual to make their own meaning. Personally I want to enjoy life. That doesn't really make me a hedonist because I think that idea is a bit too narrow. I want to enjoy the science and art humanity has developed over the course of thousands of years. I want to make a contribution to that in a small way. I want to make my family and friends' lives better. And I want to educate ignorant creationists!
This is one of the reasons I admire atheists more than theists. Theists have everything decided for them. They don't have to think because all the answers are provided for them by their religion (unfortunately, the answers are mostly false). Without a dogma to guide them atheists have to think about things themselves. Maybe that's why they are often far better informed on these matters of philosophy, theology, and science.
Comment 60 by Anonymous on 2007-03-21 at 01:36:46:
You answered my question perfectly, thank you.
Well, it is a choice to be informed in philosophy, theology, and science. I know plenty of Christians who are more informed on those subjects than any atheist I know. Also, I know plenty of atheists that barely know what those words even mean. So, that last sentence is completely opinion.
Christians do have a choice. We have a choice in whether to believe in God or not. I would rather have hope than positive thinking.
Comment 61 by OJB on 2007-03-21 at 07:59:05:
Saying you know Christians who are more informed than any atheist is just unsubstantiated nonsense. What possible basis do you have for saying that? I do agree that a lot of atheists haven't really looked at the issues closely, just like a lot of religious people have very little knowledge of theology. Most people, whether they believe or not, have very few clues about anything!
You mean you would rather have hope than face the facts. OK, that's the way you want to live, fine. I am more interested in finding out what's actually true.
Comment 62 by Anonymous on 2007-03-22 at 00:38:56:
Trust me, I know PLENTY of Christians that know way more information on that kind of stuff than some atheists. I am sorry about saying any atheist, I meant some.
No, I would not rather have hope than facts. That is why I have both and yes, that is the way I want to live. I believe, with supporting facts, that the Bible is true. To me, the big bang seems stupid, but hey, that's just me. I am not here to criticize you or your beliefs. I am just here to tell you about mine.
Comment 63 by OJB on 2007-03-22 at 09:14:10:
OK, so now what you say sounds more likely. You know plenty of Christians who know more about the topic than some atheists. OK, I can accept that, because there are plenty of ignorant atheists around!
You keep telling me you believe the Bible partly because of the supporting facts, but I have never seen a single supporting fact yet. I can give you many which contradict the Bible, though.
The Big Bang might seem stupid to you but that's probably because you don't know the facts. Let me ask you this. If you saw the following undisputed facts what would you think? ...
1. Many years ago radio engineers found a strange "noise" in their antenna which came from every direction in space. At the same time, independently cosmologists predicted this should exist if the Big Bang happened. The spectrum matches precisely.
2. Astronomers have discovered that galaxies are all moving apart from each other at a speed proportional to their distance. If you play this expansion backwards you reach a point where everything was jammed together in a singularity.
3. if you calculate what elements the Universe should be made from if a Big Bang happened, then look at the actual abundance, they match precisely.
If there was no Big Bang then how do you explain that? We can actually *see* the Big Bang. That's what the background radiation is! I think its stupid *not* to believe that.
Comment 64 by Anonymous on 2007-03-23 at 02:59:14:
Okay, we all know that there are some facts that lead to the big bang but there are alot of facts leading to God as well.
You cannot prove the Bible wrong. It is humanly impossible. Yeah, you might have somethings supporting evolution, but everything the scientists come up with just make themselves look more foolish. I have been doing some research and it is just funny how some people feel and I know some people only share their disgust instead of telling the facts on why they feel that way. So, I think it is stupid *not* to believe in God.
Comment 65 by OJB on 2007-03-23 at 08:20:00:
You say there are facts supporting god. OK, let's hear some. I have shown you facts supporting my views, why not do the same in return? Just saying "there are a lot of facts leading to god" without taking it any further is a waste of time. Just show me some facts!
I can prove the Bible is wrong. I have shown where it is wrong in many places on the first page here. Take a look and tell me where I'm wrong. The Bible is mostly fiction, its as simple as that.
So you've been doing some research eh? Why not share your wisdom here and tell me what you've discovered supporting your views and dismissing mine. That should be entertaining.
Would you also like to take my challenge by answering the questions here.
Comment 66 by Anonymous on 2007-03-26 at 08:48:35:
I read the creation analysis you wanted me too and answered back to a few of the things you said about that part of a verse but not all of it yet. Here are my notes:
[I moved this comment to the discusison system on the page involved, here.]
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