Entry 633, on 2007-11-01 at 21:12:08 (Rating 4, Religion)
I always enjoy reading the public opinion page in our local newspaper. Its a repository of bizarre and unsubstantiated comments on a variety of subjects - but the most amusing are, not surprisingly, the religious ones.
A common view, which was put forward in a recent short piece, was that the inevitable decline into immorality facing our country (New Zealand) can only be arrested by a return to accepting the Bible as God's word and appreciating the moral guidance and salvation from sin it contains.
The writer came from a town called Bulls which probably explains the distinct aroma of bullshit his writings contained. Many people have seen the short comment about the decline of society and the immorality of the younger generation attributed to a Greek philosopher (I think it was Plato). Obviously the decline of society has been a topic of concern for many years!
I saw a "Russel's Teapot" cartoon on the Internet recently which featured a teacher blaming American societal problems on the fact they have "turned their back on God". A child in the class observed that Norway is one of the most atheist countries on Earth but also one of the most functional and moral. It was a cartoon but it seemed realistic and, sure enough, when I checked the stats they were right.
Norway does have a high rate of disbelief - only 10% identify themselves as Christian. But Norway is rated the most peaceful nation on Earth, it has a tiny unemployment rate and enjoys some of the highest wages, longest life expectancy, and is near the top for literacy, education and standard of living. I know these factors don't necessarily equate to morality (which is a rather subjective notion with many definitions) but I think they are good practical indicators.
Its apparent that lack of Christian belief is not a certain route to social disaster. Maybe its the other way around in fact. It seems the most religious countries are the ones with the greatest problems. I can only wonder what would happen if Norway could get rid of the last 10% who are still Christians. Maybe they would have even less problems then!
Hmmm, I knew there was something fishy about this post. Nothing like the facts getting the way of a good story eh OJB?
Anyway OJB said: "Norway does have a high rate of disbelief - only 10% identify themselves as Christian."
But Wikipedia says: Nearly 83% of Norwegians are members of the state Church of Norway (aka Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway), to which they are registered at birth. Many remain in the state church to be able to use services such as baptism, confirmation, marriage and burial, rites which have strong cultural standing in Norway. As few as 10%, however, regularly attend church. About 17% do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force.
Well this completely blows OJB's theory in this post OUT OF THE WATER. I think NZ is at least 50% Christian. Norway is about 83%, and more importantly Christianity has a "strong cultural standing in Norway" (which means you cannot correct yourself and say you were only referring to the regular churchgoers). Fact is, Christianity is ingrained in their society which you referred to as "the most peaceful nation on Earth"
Moral decline? Better start over OJB ;-)
Comment 2 by OJB on 2008-01-30 at 08:56:55:
Having membership of a church forced on them at birth doesn't make them religious. From the same article at Wikipedia: "As few as 10 percent, however, regularly attend church, and identify themselves as part of the Christian faith". And your quote regarding belief in some unspecified spirit means very little because it encompasses so many possible superstitions and beliefs.
Comment 3 by SBFL on 2008-01-31 at 00:44:57:
Firstly - I apologise for not closing the italics tag with the quote (OJB, not blaming you, but how about allowing a 'preview' option before a commentator posts a comment?)
As for your quote from the Wikipedia article, I openly pointed out that the article said "As few as 10%, however, regularly attend church.", but I do not see the bit that you mention "... and identify themselves as part of the Christian faith"
My reference is simply a search of "Norway" on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway
As we know, and I have been open about, not all Christian go to church every Sunday... but those who are not regular church-goers still identify themselves as Christians due to their beliefs. Furthermore, most of these types of figures are based on a (recent) census, rather on what occurred decades ago.
So as it stands, the evidence still points to this "most peaceful nation on Earth" being 83% Christian.
Comment 4 by OJB on 2008-01-31 at 11:03:18:
Maybe it depends on how you interpret the stats. The Wikipedia article specifically says "As few as 10 percent, however, regularly attend church, and identify themselves as part of the Christian faith". Clearly only 10% are Christian because if a person says they aren't a Christian then I would say they actually aren't one.
The 83% are those who are *theoretical* members of the state church which they are registered to (whether they want to be or not) at birth. Most maintain that simply for convenience. Again - these people aren't Christians!
Comment 5 by SBFL on 2008-02-11 at 23:10:38:
OJB - I cannot see the section that says "and identify themselves as part of the Christian faith". Please link to this. Looking at the article just now my original quote still stands. It is the 3rd paragraph under the Religion section under Norway: "...As few as 10%, however, regularly attend church. (Note the full stop) About 17% do not believe..."
Comment 6 by OJB on 2008-02-12 at 05:10:38:
That page has been edited many times in the last month. That particular phrase seems to have been removed, maybe because there was no reference supporting it. I know the fact that they don't go to church doesn't necessarily mean they aren't Christian, but it is still a good indicator. I will see if there are other references which might clarify this.
Comment 7 by SBFL on 2008-02-12 at 23:24:31:
That page has not been edited (at least in the disputed area) since I made my original comment challenging your assertion.
No, not a good indicator. Have you met people who regard themselves as Christian yet don't go to Church regularly? Doubt they would agree with your post.
Better find another country to model on. Norway is predominantly Christian, and as you termed it "the most peaceful nation on Earth".
Comment 8 by OJB on 2008-02-13 at 10:06:44:
The page has been edited many times. I copied that quote directly from Wikipedia so it obviously was there at some point recently.
What you are saying is that because people are enrolled in a church when they are born (whether they want to be members or not) they are Christian. This is obviously ridiculous.
I think we need to find a new source of information since the information at Wikipedia can be interpreted in several ways and is also rapidly changing.
Comment 9 by SBFL on 2008-02-29 at 02:24:39:
Well the page "Norway" may have changed many times bit has the section we are referring to? It still says "As few as 10%, however, regularly attend church." Note the full stop. I see no continuation with ", and identify themselves as part of the Christian faith".
Here is another quick source via Google:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90192.htm
International Religious Freedom Report 2007
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor (US Department of State)
"The country has an area of approximately 150,000 square miles and a population of 4.6 million. Citizens are considered to be members of the state church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway, unless they explicitly note otherwise. For example, citizens may elect to associate themselves with another denomination, nonreligious organization (e.g., the Norwegian Humanist Association), or no religious affiliation at all. An estimated 85 percent of the population (3.9 million persons) nominally belongs to the state church. However, actual church attendance is quite low.
Other religious groups operate freely and include various Protestant Christian denominations (129,761 members), Muslims (72,023), and Roman Catholics (46,440). Buddhists, Jews, Orthodox Christians, Sikhs, and Hindus are present in very small numbers, together comprising less than 1 percent of the population. The Norwegian Humanist Association--the only national organization for those who did not formally practice any religion, including atheists--has 76,470 registered members. The Government estimated that an additional 6.7 percent of the population (approximately 252,000 persons) does not formally practice religion."
So, this also does NOT SAY that 'as few as 10% identify themselves as part of the Christian faith.'
My point is backed up with this link, do you have a source that backs yours up?
Comment 10 by OJB on 2008-02-29 at 09:49:29:
Clearly we are both looking at the sats in different ways. I think the quote above really supports what I was saying. These people are members of a church by default, not through choice. That means nothing. The fact that fewer than 10% attend church does mean something: they aren't religious! Note the word "nominally in: nominally belongs to the state church. However, actual church attendance is quite low..
Comment 11 by SBFL on 2008-02-29 at 23:14:05:
i refer you to my earlier comments. I have always acknowledged that not all Christians in Norway regularly attend church. Don't see these folk signing up to atheism though...
Anyway your point was that: "As few as 10%, however, regularly attend church and identify themselves as part of the Christian faith".
Show me the money (evidence)!!
Comment 12 by OJB on 2008-03-01 at 11:16:39:
You don't sign up to atheism. You seem to refuse to accept this. Atheism is just not having a religion. Do people sign up to supporting no political party? No.
The quote was in the original Wikipedia entry and was removed, probably rightly so because it wasn't backed up with evidence. We really aren't getting anywhere here because we are back to the old problem of "what is a Christian".
Comment 13 by SBFL on 2008-03-01 at 18:57:01:
You are changing the topic, but generally people declare themselves an atheist.
The original Wiki article? I thought I provided this source? It was never there when I first brought it up. You never mentioned using it as a source in your post.
bug report: When you click on "View earlier comments" your text (unplublished) in the new comment box blanks (as does the name and anti-spam number).
Comment 14 by OJB on 2008-03-01 at 20:55:18:
Yes many people declare themselves as atheists just as many declare themselves politically neutral. Neither of those situations involve being tied up with a belief system.
Look, I copy and pasted that from Wikipedia. It was changed shortly after that. I admit that the Wikipedia article shouldn't have had the extra bit in it anyway. What's the problem here?
Thanks for the bug report. Its not really a bug, just the way the system works. But its worth tidying it up anyway. I'll look at these issues when I get the time. In the mean time don't click the view earlier comments link while editing your entry!
Comment 15 by SBFL on 2008-03-10 at 03:28:20:
"Neither of those situations involve being tied up with a belief system." It is a belief system because they have beliefs. Pretty simple LOGIC I would have thought.
No problem, but the facts I linked to stand. Happy to look outside Wikipedia for religious affiliation of Norway if you wish.
Comment 16 by OJB on 2008-03-10 at 09:11:17:
Yes, I agree that a belief involves believing something. But by rejecting specific political beliefs and becoming politically neutral, or rejecting religious beliefs and becoming an atheist it seems to me that a person would be avoiding a belief system. And its not logic, its more semantics, I think.
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