Entry 2207, on 2022-03-03 at 13:06:42 (Rating 4, Politics)
I'm not anti-police at all, believe me. I think police are an unfortunate necessity in society, and I think most of them are reasonable people doing a difficult job to do, but... Hey, you knew there was going to be a "but", didn't you?
I live in New Zealand and am writing a blog post about police. Would you care to guess what the issue is? Obviously, it is the way police are trying to clear the protestors at the Wellington anti-mandate protest. Is this a good thing? Is it fair? Is it reasonable? Is this one of those unfortunate jobs that we wish weren't necessary, but because it is, we should be happy the police can do it?
First, some background for those of you in other countries or who haven't been following this issue here (how couldn't you?)...
The main reason for the protest is government mandates, mainly for vaccination, which have resulted in a lot of hardship for some people, including a lot of people losing their jobs.
It has been going on for a couple of weeks and involves hundreds of people who have camped on the grounds of New Zealand's parliament buildings in Wellington, which is technically illegal.
There has been relatively low levels of violence and other anti-social activity, and in general the protest is peaceful, although some unpleasant incidents have been reported.
Most politicians have refused to engage with the protestors.
Surveys indicate between 30 and 40 percent of New Zealanders agree with the protestors, despite there being an apparently endless stream of negative reporting from the mainstream media, which is about as biased and inaccurate as we have come to expect from them.
So I thought I might "crowdsource" some opinions and ideas about this event. I grabbed the first 10 or 20 comments about a tweet on this subject created by well-known political commentator, Bryce Edwards. I just grabbed them all and didn't try to get only a certain perspective. So let's have a look at these comments, and my reaction to them...
Comment: They just tried to arrest me - I was on the front line and they tried to pluck me out - I fought back and the crowd pulled me back.
Reaction: I must say that I admire these people's dedication to their cause. Even if you think they're wrong - and I think they are right about some things and wrong about others - you should at least respect them for what they have risked by being there.
Comment: I'm in tears watching our NZ Police push up against the protestors. Some elderly! Who are standing peacefully because their rights have been stolen away. NZ, what's happened?
Reaction: It's always unpleasant to watch police actions like this. Undoubtedly both sides occasionally slip into unnecessary violence, but I think it's very important that the police set a high standard and use minimum force.
Comment: Such a sad day. Police getting ready to be violent against protesters and all for what you have to ask yourself? Mandates are about to be removed either by judges or the PM being forced into a corner so the battle has been won this violence is totally unnecessary. Worst PM ever.
Reaction: The point here is that the protestors are about to be given what they want, but I'm not sure if that is true. The government has not committed to any particular date for removing the mandates and other measures, as far as I know. I do have to wonder whether just leaving the protest camp there and waiting for them to get bored and leave might have been a better choice. Is Jacinda the worst PM ever? That's a tough call, but she is certainly amongst the worst, according to my perspective.
Comment: I love how the mainstream nz media are turning their live feeds off so the Police can bash freely this morning. Charming.
Reaction: I think there is no doubt that the media have not reported on this issue fairly, but they never report fairly, so that is no surprise. Whether they are deliberately avoiding recording police violence is far from certain though. It would seem pointless since so many protestors and others have phones which they are recording and streaming events with - don't you just love what phones have done for recording controversial events?
Comment: So, people have lost their jobs, lost their homes; some have lost friends and family to the vax. They are so desperate for the gov to hear them, they have given up everything to sleep in tents on parliament grounds for 3 weeks. The gov pepper sprays them at dawn.
Reaction: I'm sure that not all protestors have suffered major losses like these, but equally I'm sure some have. I should clarify that it is police who have used pepper spray, not the government (I can just imagine the PM, wearing her hijab for protection, getting out there and blasting them with pepper spray while shouting "be kind"!). We should note though that some MPs have been talking to police on a regular basis, so while the politicians claim this is a police matter and they have no influence, I don't think that's credible.
Comment: MPs weren’t required to be vaccinated and the High Court has found mandates for police were unlawful. And yet these are the very same people now attempting to force New Zealand citizens from the Parliament Grounds for demanding the same rights for everyone.
Reaction: I haven't confirmed whether vaccines were mandated for MPs or not, but I believe they are all vaccinated anyway, so it probably doesn't matter too much. The police and military mandates were unlawful, so you would have to assume that something similar might apply to other professions as well. Of course, the subtlety around this argument is that technically there was no mandate for most; the government just created a system where if you didn't get vaccinated you could do almost nothing, including work.
Comment: So it appears that when #DawnRaidCindy said she would govern for all New Zealanders, she actually meant only the ones that agreed with her.
Reaction: Yes, in many ways the way Cindy promises to rule everyone with equal kindness then refuses to listen to a significant group (supported by 30 to 40% of the population) and disparages them at every opportunity is the most annoying part of this.
Comment: Conflicted. I can’t work out if the standard of Journalism in NZ is incredibly bad, or Journalists are just too afraid to ask tough questions and swim against the narrative? There has been some terrible reporting of late.
Reaction: I think it's a bit of both. In general the journalists are quite capable of doing good work, they just choose not to, because they have a particular narrative they have chosen to follow. So in the classic question: incompetent or corrupt, the answer is primarily "corrupt".
Comment: Two questions for every NZer: Why didn’t the PM talk to the protest, and what purpose do mandates serve. Try and keep your answers civil and just to those two points please. I’m so tired of the hate words here directed at "filth" etc.
Reaction: My answer would be PM was advised by her spin doctors to take the "high ground" and not engage with the protestors who have been portrayed as unworthy of serious consideration. Mandates served one purpose only: to apply force to people to comply with the government's agenda. That could be seen as a good or bad thing.
Comment: I started my new job today. It was absolutely awesome. I loved every minute of it and bonus, vaccine status doesn’t even exist there.
Reaction: I think the majority of individuals and workplaces would prefer to distance themselves from all of this compulsion, but many can't because of various pressures put on them. This person was really lucky to find a good one.
Comment: Shameful, New Zealand. Utterly shameful. Very few Kiwis can hold their heads high... the rest need to take a long, hard look at themselves and find their souls again.
Reaction: The sight of large numbers of police, equipped with shields, pepper spray, etc is never good to see, and I think we should feel some shame that this has happened here.
Comment: Is New Zealand in a constitutional crisis? A protest with 30 percent public support (according to @NZStuff) has been ignored by the PM and every other MP. They are now been beaten and pepper sprayed by @nzpolice. #ConvoyNZ2022 #nzpol #NZpolice
#constitutionalcrisis
Reaction: A "constitutional crisis" might be a bit strong, but ignoring a protest with such substantial support seems unfair.
Comment: I was shocked & dismayed when @JennaLynchNZ referred to the protestors on @NewshubNZ last night as "that lot". She didn’t even try to hide her disdain for them or hide her biased view of them. Another amateurish report from her. Keep your opinions to yourself please Jenna.
Reaction: There seems to be no effort at all by the media at even pretending to be unbiased. Even when reporting on events which should be positive for the protest, they can't help but add a negative comment at the end saying the protestors' ideas are false, or some such thing.
Comment: To all those (lefties) that criticised Australia's response to Omicron, NZ is now using the Aussies to process 9,000 PCR tests because NZ was not prepared for Omicron!
Reaction: As I have said in previous posts, this government has got almost everything wrong and the fact that we have been quite successful is more to do with good luck than anything else.
Comment: Remember that time Jacinda Ardern laughed whilst talking about 600 Kiwis that took their own lives? It’s important we don’t forget these things - although it’s difficult to keep track of them all. #nzpol
Reaction: I don't know if this event when Ardern laughed is real, but I think many people are seeing behind her superficial semblance of kindness and are realising that she has a rather nasty and maybe even evil streak we might not have seen much before.
Comment: The protests are an expression of widespread disenchantment with current policies; they are an act of civil disobedience. They require a political solution that needs to come from the political class. There is little point in asking the Police to find a solution.
Reaction: You could say that this is an illegal occupation so it is the police's job to deal with it, but you could also say the protest is about political issues, so the politicians should deal with it. At least they could have tried first, but they didn't.
Comment: #nzpol Ardern apologized for dawn raids by her father, while conducting dawn raids. #Nothing to see here...
Reaction: Yes, it is this unevenness which is maybe the biggest problem. Plenty of other protests and occupations have been allowed to continue for long periods of time, but this one hasn't for some reason, maybe because the protestors aren't a group the government will get votes from.
Comment: I stand with the protesters. Whether I like it or not, whether you can see it or not, they're the only people in New Zealand currently standing up against the breaches of fundamental and universal human rights and freedoms in this country. #Convoy2022NZ #HoldTheLine #solidarity
Reaction: I know that some of the protestors hold crazy, extreme views, but the primary reason for it is pretty fair. The mandates were a particularly authoritarian move, which we might not normally expect to see in New Zealand. Were they justified under the unusual circumstances? Well, that's a matter of opinion, but at the very least questioning this approach is reasonable.
Comment: the people will just reform somewhere else #convoy2022NZ #nz #nzpol and i suspect many more will join now.
Reaction: I hope so. Governments need to learn that there is a limit to how they wield power. If these protests continue to be an embarrassment to them, possibly resulting in them losing the next election, it might cause future administrations to be less authoritarian.
Comment: My friend is trying to escape with her five year old. A police officer reached into her vehicle and stole the key from the ignition.
Reaction: It's hard to comment on this without knowing the specifics, but I suspect the police won't come out of this event without a few questions being asked about what they did.
Comment: I hazard a guess that people who supported the 1981 Springbok protests, are all for police getting in today & removing people from Wellington. Interestingly Springbok protests were about rights of citizens in another country, Wellington protest is about citizen rights, right here.
Reaction: Yes, the inconsistency in the official reaction to different protests is quite informative. A protest involving a politically correct issue like black lives matter or indigenous rights can get away with a lot more than one involving direct criticism of the government, like this one. If we want to be tough on protestors, can we be tough on them all?
Since I wrote this post the protest has been cleared by a fairly aggressive operation by police. We had injuries, destruction, and some small fires. It was not a good look. And since then almost all of the reaction on the mainstream media has been anti-protest. There has been no acknowledgement that a significant proportion of the population supported it. No surprises there; no wonder we have protests!
Comment 1 (7111) by Anonymous on 2022-03-03 at 13:34:34:
The Stuff poll you are referring to did not ask people why they supported the protest. They could, for example, be supporting the right to lawful protest. You really have no idea.
Comment 2 (7112) by Anonymous on 2022-03-03 at 13:44:43:
"technically illegal". Sure about that? Pretty funny how you try to undermine any arguments against your position using passive language.
Last time I checked being served with a trespass notice after 21 days of occupying a space and refusing to leave was more then "technically" illegal.
"There has been relatively low levels of violence and other anti-social activity" Do you have a metric for that, or just a "feeling"...
Comment 3 (7113) by OJB on 2022-03-03 at 14:02:16:
Technically illegal because protests and occupations are often allowed to proceed, even if the law has been broken. Some actions are illegal but ignored, but not this.
Until the final stages (which happened after I wrote this, and were undoubtedly a reaction to police aggression) there were no significant injuries, so I think it's fair to say that the violence level was low.
Comment 4 (7114) by OJB on 2022-03-03 at 14:05:47:
The question in the poll was "Do you support or oppose this protest at Parliament?" Seems clear enough to me. On the other hand, your objection looks like it was lifted directly from an MSM source. Who is it who has no idea?
Comment 5 (7115) by Anonymous on 2022-03-03 at 16:53:44:
"your objection looks like it was lifted directly from an MSM source " Jeez, don't be so paranoid. Is this your suspicion about anybody that disagrees with you? I simply looked at details of the poll and saw that the question of whether "you support mandates or not" was not asked. You were the one that quoted "MSM" (as you call it), I merely read the article you referenced.
By the way, the protest was allowed to occur for 21 days before it was split up after multiple warnings. "protests and occupations are often allowed to proceed " Correct - if they are lawful. I believe that's the point I'm making.
There were multiple reports of verbal abuse from protesters directed towards members of the public. Whether the fringe elements within the protest group were representative of the whole is another issue. I think that's part of the problem with this protest, there was no unified position. Also, the vast majority of peaceful protestors did not control the lunatic fringe. They would have served their purpose far better by expelling these people.
"Seems clear enough to me. ", yes, I'm sure it does.
Comment 6 (7116) by OJB on 2022-03-03 at 17:24:59:
No big deal, as soon as I read the Stuff article on the survey I saw some text very similar to yours. No doubt just a coincidence!
I think you will find there have bene numerous protests in the past where a trespass could have been executed but wasn't, or was only after a very long time. Bastion Point (illegal) protestors removed after 506 days, for example.
Well a few insults are hardly worth getting too concerned about, are they? Come on, the definition of violence and abuse seems to cover almost anything now. I agree that the protest should have been better organised with clear people in a position to negotiate, but given the nature of the groups involved, that's not surprising. There was some control of the "lunatic fringe", but not enough according to some.
Well it is clear, isn't it. I wanted to know what percentage of the population support the protest so I looked at a survey which asked what percentage of the population support the protest. Not rocket science!
Comment 7 (7117) by Anonymous on 2022-03-04 at 09:24:25:
Look on the bright side, Camp Covid residents are now FREE to remove their tinfoil hats, free of the dangerous and mind altering EMF machines the government deployed. Now they just need to stay clear of 5G towers.
Comment 8 (7118) by OJB on 2022-03-04 at 09:49:13:
I agree that some of their beliefs deserved to be mocked, but there is also a reasonable message there which is too easy to ignore because of the crazy conspiracy element. It's a problem with most protests.
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