Entry 819, on 2008-07-23 at 20:18:58 (Rating 4, Religion)
For a couple of months now I have been debating various aspects of religion with a fundamentalist Christian friend (yes, I do have friends who are religious!). He has sent me several questions and I have always answered them as quickly and with as much honesty as I can. But he has almost always failed to answer the questions I sent to him.
I initially sent some technical questions relating to global warming (yes, I know that's not entirely related to religion) and evolution which I didn't get a reply to, so I then sent a more "pop philosophical" question. The question is a very old one, but I have never heard a good answer to it, so I was interested to hear what he would say.
The question was this: if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and good, then why are there so many bad things in this world, especially terrible things that happening to good people.
I should define the question first. By omnipotent I mean that God can do anything which makes logical sense. For example, he shouldn't be able to make a make a mutually exclusive statement true, or make a mathematical or logical impossibility happen, but he should be able to do anything that makes sense beyond that. Surely that's not too much to ask for someone who made the whole Universe in six days!
By omniscient I mean he knows everything. Theoretically this means he knows every detail of every particle in the Universe but I would be happy with a scaled down requirement involving him at least knowing the consequences of his own actions. If he made the whole Universe and is as wise as his followers claim then this also seems reasonable.
Good is a little bit more difficult because it is partly subjective, but I have thought of a way of defining good to a Christian. Its this: would Jesus approve? Jesus said we should be forgiving and understanding and avoid violence and conflict, didn't he? If God doesn't act this way then he isn't good by the Christian's own standards. By the way, don't worry about whether Jesus existed or not, on this occasion I will assume he did!
So we have bad things happening in the world. Some are caused by bad human behaviour but God is also ultimately responsible for that too so he doesn't get excused so easily. However, I will take it easy on God and just mention two bad things which he is basically entirely responsible for: disease and natural disasters.
Yes, I know that to a certain extent humans influence some disasters and disease, but in general they are of natural origin (or supernatural if you believe God is responsible for the Universe we live in). So God is responsible for these things because he must know they happen (he's omniscient) and he can fix them (he's omnipotent). In fact, not only could he fix them but, as the creator of the Universe, he actually created them!
So are these things bad? Do you think Jesus would approve of innocent children dying of AIDS? Or cancer? Or of innocent people being drowned by a tsunami? I don't think so. So why is it OK for God to make these things happen? Well, there are actually several possible excuses.
The first is free will. Some believers say that bad things are just part of the free will that God gave us and that we should be thankful for that. They say that if God was to look after us to the extent of removing disease and disaster he would be removing free will. This is just silly, because no one would choose to have either of those things, and there are plenty of other things God says we shouldn't do, so he can't be that committed to free will.
The second possible excuse is the Fall. The Fall is a convenient excuse for just about everything. Its so ridiculous that I can hardly stop myself from laughing when I hear it, but some people really believe the Adam and Eve story and that we have all been punished with these negative events ever since. Would Jesus say that its OK to torture innocent children for something their ancestors did? I don't think so.
The third common excuse is that the next life will be better. Believers say that, sure, this life is bad but when you get to heaven that will all be forgotten because of how great life will be then. Would Jesus approve of someone torturing a person now as long as he said there life would be good later? I don't seem to remember that being in the Bible anywhere. And what about killing people with a natural disaster before they get the chance to do the good things which would get them to heaven? When you think about it, this is just as silly as the others.
So none of these excuses stand up to even a superficial examination. The conclusion is inescapable. God cannot be omniscient, omnipotent, and good. Either he exists in a form quite different from what most religious people believe (he's either evil or incompetent), or he doesn't exist at all. So here's a challenge to the believers: give me an answer.
Wow, good point. I had never really thought about it like that before. It will be good to see if anyone writes a good answer to your question here.
Comment 2 (1521) by GadgetDon on 2008-07-24 at 04:14:00:
One of the elements of faith is accepting that you don't understand everything. So some of the things that will leave me wondering, I'll continue to wonder.
But for the most part, here's how I see it...we are living in a real world. A world where natural forces exist. And while the intelligence we have been granted allow us to understand them to some extent, our wisdom sometimes lack in the way we deal with them. And even with our intelligence and our wisdom, we are part of the natural world and are sometimes affected by it.
This is the world where we understand what it's like to live. To make choices. Some choices are good, some choices are bad. And there are consequences of those choices, on ourselves and on others. Consequences are how you learn the importance of making good choices.
As for the fall...I mostly believe the fall was metaphorical. Just a recognition that we live in a world that is not perfect, that doesn't have all it's sharp corners nicely padded. Although to the extent there was a fall...my faith tells me that this is not the last life, but it's silent on whether this is the first life. So it's possible that there was a "fall" for all of us, that we were in a perfect existence, and are now in this one, and will go to another. Or, this may be our first existance. I don't know, it's not important.
And yes, God could remove all pain and all risk and all consequences from this world...just like a parent can keep their children from all pain or fear or concern or unmet desire. But parents that do that are pretty much failing in their duty as parents, because without such things, the children are unprepared when they enter the adult world. Yes, parents do keep their kids from things that will result in their death or severe injury...but what we view as death is not a final ending to God.
None of this is to minimize the pain felt by people in trouble, and the responsibility laid on all of us to help those in those situations. But be honest...would you want to live in a world where nothing bad can ever happen, given all that would have to be done to ensure that state?
Comment 3 (1522) by OJB on 2008-07-24 at 09:56:58:
First, thanks for the comment and its good to hear from you again GadgetDon.
The first point you make is one I didn't cover. That is that there is a greater plan and that the pain and suffering has some meaning that we don't understand. But this is really just a cop out because we could apply that argument to anything. It may be true but how would we ever know, and what point is there in discussing god from a pre-conceived notion of ignorance.
Regarding your second point. We make choices sure, but how does that apply to natural disaster and disease? Do people decide to be killed by a tsunami or hurricane? Does a baby decide to get infected with AIDS? And what do they learn from this? I don't think this makes much sense.
If the Fall is metaphorical then what else is? Maybe God is metaphorical too. A lot of people think so. How do we know which parts of a religion are metaphorical and which are literal?
Finally you point out that removing all pain and the consequences of bad decisions is too overbearing. I agree. No parent should be overly protective. Children should make mistakes and learn. But what parent would allow a child to suffer terribly or die as a result of their own inaction? No good parent would allow a truck to kill their child when they could stop it. In fact, to extend this analogy, God is driving the truck!
Sorry, but none of your explanations really provide strong support for a traditional God. He still has to be either incompetent or evil - or not exist at all - or be a metaphor.
Comment 4 (1523) by GadgetDon on 2008-07-25 at 04:34:43:
Again, you're looking at the question of what happens in this world as the be-all and end-all. So a child that dies too early has their existance snuffed out, and that is a tragedy. But to use a video game analogy, what if it's more like "OK, time to go back to the save point and get born again".
Granted, you don't believe that there is anything more than this existance, but you also don't believe in a God, and you can't just say "OK, let's assume one part of your belief is true...see? It doesn't work!"
And as for natural disaster and disease...could you have a natural world, operating by laws, where there was never such a thing as a tsunami or a hurricane? But there are still choices to be made, perhaps not on the individual, but do you choose to live in an area where tsunamis or hurricanes often happen, or do you do the behavior where your child may be infected with AIDS.
Clearly, we should do what we can to both avoid the pain inflicted on people, and help those inflicted. It's required if this is the only world, and still the proper thing to do even if it's only a waystation or a brief phase of our existance. But again, when you look at the question of "why do these terrible things happen", realize that to those of faith, this is what happens in a few decades at most of an eternal life.
Comment 5 (1524) by OJB on 2008-07-25 at 09:39:15:
Yes, I guess it gets back to faith. When you have faith you tend to look at these sorts of discussions form one perspective. You have already decided what the answer is do you pick and choose the evidence that supports that outcome. I'm not trying to be insulting here, this is a fact I have seen over and over.
I already discussed the "next life" excuse. Here's one point I made: what happens to people whose lives are ended early (by a disaster) before they have a chance to fulfill the requirements needed to get into heaven?
And if you believe in heaven do you also believe in hell? If you do there are a lot of people (me included) who will go there. I'm not a bad person but I'm doomed to eternal pain and torment. Is that what a good god would do?
Comment 6 (1525) by GadgetDon on 2008-07-26 at 01:43:37:
Most versions of the Christian faith assume that there is some protection for children early on. Personally, I believe that our understanding of heaven and hell are far too affected by our earthbound existances, and that what happens when we move on is open to question. I do believe that accepting Jesus as savior helps provide me with guidance and assistance in preparing for what is necessary to do in this life, but I'm not going to put a limit on God's ability to forgive.
As for hell...let's assume for the moment that the protestant view is completely correct, that Heaven is the best place possible, and that the only way to get in is by accepting Jesus Christ as your savior. Now imagine spending eternity outside of heaven, aware of what's in there, wanting it with all your heart, but unable to have it. Seems a reasonable definition of hell.
So why not just open the doors and say "OK, everybody come on in?" Again we are limited by our worldview which is tied into this mortal existance, but something that appears in many faiths is that a man cannot see the face of God and live. So perhaps it isn't that God is saying "Nope, I don't like you, you can't come in", but rather "You aren't prepared, you can't survive here, and so can't come in." It's not the bouncer outside a ritzy club deciding who can enter or who can't, it's the ride operator comparing kids to the "you must be this high to enter this ride".
Ever see the movie "Defendng Your Life"? I think there may be a bit of truth in it.
Look, neither of us is going to convince each other. All I know, from my experiences and what I have felt inside, is that there is a LOT more to our existance than the four score or so years we'll have on this planet. And that there is a creative force in the universe, it is personal, and it loves us. And so yeah, there is faith, but it's not blind faith.
Comment 7 (1526) by OJB on 2008-07-27 at 13:09:21:
Accepting Jesus' positive ideas (assuming Jesus existed) seems like a good idea but I don't see why the superstition that often goes along with them is necessary. The Old Testament stuff was only grafted into Christianity to make it acceptable to Jews. I think it would be better to throw the whole thing out. Trash the Old Testament and all references to it in the New. Accept the positive parts of the Christian message and forget the old nonsense like creation, the Fall, and all the other contradictory garbage. Have a look at the Jefferson Bible.
I know you think your personal experiences are valid but there is one easy way to show they don't mean a lot objectively. Many people around the world have personal experiences they are convinced have real meaning. But many of them are contradictory. They can't all be right. But they can all be wrong.
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