This is a big one! It's a debate I had with a religious person regarding a post by Ben Shapiro who claimed it disproved, or cast serious doubt on, atheism. I apologise for the massive blocks of text here, but that's just what my opponent did!
Me Ben is a pretty solid, rational person until religion is mentioned, then he makes about as mush sense as the people he so often destroys in debate. I like him overall. Everyone has their blind spots.
Opponent GOD and Jesus are real bud.
Me And how can an atheist say god is real? They wouldn't be an atheist any more. Try to get your stories to make some sort of sense, please.
Opponent There's nothing funny here. Do the research, there's more evidence of Jesus than there is for Julius Ceasar. That's the facts. There are people who've been dead for over 48 hours and they come back to life with stories of the other side, everyone, atheists included, say God is real. Jesus was only dead for about 36 hours over 3 days so it's very real that He resurrected from the dead. There's over 500+ eyewitnesses to that and over 500+ eyewitnesses that watched Him shoot straight up into the sky and ascend to Heaven. Almost every scientist believes the universe was designed meaning it has a Creator. Just go do the research and look at the actual evidence, you'll change your mind for sure if you're a reasonably rational thinking guy. Js.
Supporter Atheists say god is real?
Opponent After seeing the overwhelming evidence or after they've had a near death experience they do because Jesus is most certainly very real and EXACTLY who He said He Is.
Opponent That's the point bud when faced with the ACTUAL EVIDENCE they can't deny Him.
Opponent Jesus is very very real, and yes self admitted atheists have turned from their atheism in the face of the evidence of Jesus, Simon Greenleaf for starters and many others. Look it up bud cause you're dead wrong.
Opponent There's more factual evidence for Jesus than any other historical figure, do the research bud.
Me Everyone thinks their favourite religious figure is real. There is zero credible evidence for Jesus' existence. At least other historical figures are mentioned in neutral sources. The only sources outside the Bible have significant issues. I think the stories might have been based on real people, but have been distorted beyond recognition.
Opponent You're 100% wrong and clearly haven't looked at ALL of the evidence, there's more evidence of Jesus and The Resurrection than there is for Julius Ceasar. That's a fact bud. Educate yourself and you'd know.
Me I have (informally) researched this subject over many years, and if you have some good evidence, which I might not have seen, let's see it. Got a URL for the *best* evidence for his existence?
Opponent The eye witness accounts. There's literally so much it's undeniable. You haven't looked or haven't tried hard enuff. Look at former atheist Simon Greenleaf's research, he's one of the founding members of Harvard law read up on his findings there's a good start put in terms of presenting evidence in a court of law, his methods are still used this very day. Look at the archeology, the historical works, Josephus talks about Him, as does the Romans, as does the jews (they say horrible things about Him. There's more evidence for Jesus than there is for anyone. It's all true, you need to just look it's everywhere. The New Testament is mostly letters btw written from (mostly Paul) to different places (Paul was a murderer of Christians and he converted) coincidences don't happen. I won't do your research for you, you must do it on your own. Seek and ye shall find my friend. I've given you some starting points, God bless.
Me Well, we can throw out anything in the Bible, right? If not, you should also believe everything in other holy books too. The sources outside the Bible are incredibly weak, either accepted fakes (one of the Josephus sources) or written second or third hand years after the alleged events. Very, very weak. Best conclusion: it's all a myth.
Me If it's undeniable, why do most people deny it?
Opponent Ummm the biggest religion is Christianity so you're wrong there most people believe, especially after seeing the evidence. Most people in history are written about many years after their deaths the first Writings about Jesus are within His and His apostles lifetimes. That's basically unheard of. There's Writings of Him everywhere, also unheard of, He did such amazing things Word of Him was spread everywhere. Thinking most people deny Him is foolish because most people believe in Him and most people who've died since His death believe in Him. The Jewish Word is also the truth, the only thing most jews don't accept is Jesus but they will more and more are realizing it now by the thousands. The Bible is being proven every day by scientists and archeologists who are now uncovering these stories 1 by 1 and every one is true. They'll prove it. Jesus is the English translating of His name. Not everything is English. You have to dig deeper bud. You're intelligent you can do this I feel that. Godspeed on your journey man. They hide the facts because of what it means. If you know the truth it changes things. You'll see , God bless.
Opponent Ever ask yourself why would the apostles die horrible deaths for a lie?? Who would do that?? Nobody. That's who. There's many things you don't know that I can't reveal to you you're not ready to understand. Go find out and then you'll know. Ask you'll receive, seek and you'll find.
Me According to the latest data, 31.11% of the world population are Christian, meaning 68.89% aren't. So the majority deny your belief. Also, note that many people list themselves as Christian without really believing in the supernatural aspects of it, so there are even more who disagree.
Me Why do people of many religious and political beliefs die for their beliefs? They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. Also, how do we know the apostles even existed?
Opponent You're 100% wrong and clearly haven't looked at ALL of the evidence, there's more evidence of Jesus and The Resurrection than there is for Julius Ceasar. That's a fact bud. Educate yourself and you'd know.
Opponent After seeing the overwhelming evidence or after they've had a near death experience they do because Jesus is most certainly very real and EXACTLY who He said He Is.
Opponent That's the point bud when faced with the ACTUAL EVIDENCE they can't deny Him.
Opponent Jesus is very very real, and yes self admitted atheists have turned from their atheism in the face of the evidence of Jesus, Simon Greenleaf for starters and many others. Look it up bud cause you're dead wrong.
Opponent There's more factual evidence for Jesus than any other historical figure, do the research bud.
Me Why do people of many religious and political beliefs die for their beliefs? They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. Also, how do we know the apostles even existed?
Opponent Because we have all the facts and you simply don't know you live where they don't teach this stuff. We know. It's all real. Very very real. We know for a fact the day He died there was an earthquake and a solar eclipse. Even that's been proven. We have proven it you live where they don't teach you these things. Separation of church and state.
Me I have done the research and the evidence is very weak. Again, if you have anything particularly convincing, please give me a reference. Thanks.
Me In fact we can be pretty sure those events never happened. They are evidence the stories are false.
Opponent You're 100% wrong bud. I'm not trying to convince you either in fact I've said the opposite, I've told you to discover it on your own. You're wrong, you got the wrong information, and if you can't accept that then you're not going to believe without seeing Him yourself, which we all will one way or another. I won't deny Jesus or anything about The Bible because I've seen the evidence that proves it without a shadow of a doubt. There's hundreds of not thousands of documents they prove you 100% wrong, undeniably wrong in fact. You'll find out one day soon enuff. We all will. I already know the truth. I would implore you to do the same. If you still disagree with me I would encourage you to move on, you act like you could change my mind or something, I've seen the proof of Jesus, the documents, everything and I've seen His healing power. I've seen all I need to see. Everything is real. There's proof of the flood and the garden of eden we've proven it all. You are ill informed my friend. But you wouldn't believe it if I drew you a map, you can't believe something, anything or in anything, unless you do it for yourself, I cannot walk for you only myself, can you decipher what that means?? This isn't a homework assignment you have your buddy do for you, you never read the book to understand what it means, the story isn't in your head to know it, you never watched the movie too know what it was about or to understand the ending, you only heard a little of this and that from people who hate him but if you knew the real Him you'd know they were liars and in fact they were telling the truth indeed. But in fact you don't know you ask others to do it for you and then when people tell you 'yes indeed I've done this work and the final answer is yes its true' you then mock them and try to shame them and then you try to discredit them with a bunch of generalized lies and the same old 'no they said or was a lie' but you provide nothing and even if you do what is the source where it comes from? I've seen the truth and nothing could prove it wrong. Jesus is real. The Bible is real. It's all truth. If you can't accept that then you wear blinders and refuse to see the truth as it is plain and simple.
Me Well, OK. You clearly live in a world of fantasy. All of those things you say are true are beyond reasonable doubt wrong. Flood. Didn't happen. Exodus. Zero evidence. Creation. Totally mythical. Jesus. Almost zero evidence. I live in the scientific world of facts. You live in a giant myth. We are epistemologically incompatible. Fair enough.
Opponent History, science, and archeology backs The Bible. You sir are the only one of the 2 of us that lives a lie. There's GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE that proves the great flood and its found everywhere they've dug. You're 100% wrong why are you so afraid, you've still given nothing yet I've given the truth. That's how we differ. You live in a world of fog and mirrors I've seen the truth and my world is crystal clear. You'll remember this conversation one day. You won't be able to deny it. I give you answers but leaving you room to explore so you'll know in your heart yet you can't come to terms with it, to even keep an open mind to look at the evidence, you've already made up your mind yet you haven't seen the evidence, and clearly not even when everyone KNOWS FOR A FACT the great flood truly happened, not only is it in the geological record worldwide its written about in every single religion and every single culture yet you deny it you deny the archeology and all the writings, you cast them off as what, nothing?????? You look at evidence and immediately dismiss it?????? Only a fool would take many accounts who are saying the same thing and deny it!!!!!! So you're a fool?????? Smh that's not how I thought you were yet here you are making the case and winning it!!!! No sir you don't know the truth at all you live in a false world made up of your own lies because in the real world the facts have been proven to be just that, The Bible, The Creator, Jesus, The Great Flood, and everything else, all real!!!! It's sad you don't follow along with it because it's there for all to see except you apparently, you'll find out soon enuff.
Me Look, I don't know what universe you live in, but it's not the same one as the rest of us. There was no global flood, according to every branch of science we have. Sure, many cultures had flood myths, but that's all they are. I base my beliefs on science and objective facts. You don't. That's what I meant when I said we differ epistemologically. You can have whatever personal beliefs you want, but they have nothing to do with reality.
Opponent Again, you're wrong Owen. Main stream scientists and archeologists ALL AGREE, The Great Flood factually happened. You're so drastically behind the times guy it's sad. You need to catch up to what's been going on. Smh. You look silly rn. The only one lost in their own little world is you. Science and archeology say you're dead wrong, 100% dead wrong. YOU can't admit it but you're 100% wrong. Educate yourself before trying to attack me again like you are smh.
Opponent ABC News organization, University of Washington, National Center For Science and Education, Letourneau University, Smithsonian, Biblical Archeology Society, NY times, Institute For Creation Research, many more including PBS even all have interviewed and done research proving you 100% wrong. You couldn't be MORE wrong and that is just a short list, a very short list but it's vastly longer by a substantial amount, literally is common knowledge amongst scholars now yet you're stuck in the past grasping to false claims that were disputed and laid to rest. The flood really happened there's ACTUAL EVIDENCE WORLDWIDE not just here THE EVIDENCE IS EVERYWHERE!!! So your FALSE CLAIM it's not doesn't hold up. The same is true about the FACT the universe was designed aka it has a Creator is also known. The list for them is equally as long if not longer so what are you even talking about, you're arguing a point that no longer is valid and has been disproven by just about everyone, you're in the minority just like the flat Earthers in comparison. You're wrong be an adult and either look it up extensively or scroll on because I've read it all and seen it all, my eyes and ears don't lie to me. You could know the same information if you removed your blinders and looked at the facts that have been uncovered smh yet you arrogantly and falsely still try to claim I'm wrong but it's unfortunately YOU that's completely and utterly wrong here, not I. Please educate yourself before commenting again, it's not that hard with the world's information at your fingers. You must live in a place where knowledge doesn't flow freely. That's sad and horrible I feel sorry for you. The facts are out there that prove The Bible and more steps are being taken and more stories are being proven. You sir are WAY behind the research. Catch up, don't fall behind like the flat Earthers have. It's all real, I've told you all I can, you won't believe it without doing the research yourself anyway so go do it and you'll know like I do and the scientists and archeologists do. Don't be lazy and don't talk without knowledge. It's FACT so find out because it's everywhere.
Me Well, as I said, I don't think we will ever agree, because we acquire knowledge differently. But let's try again: can you send me a link to a scientific paper supporting the flood.
Opponent It's everywhere. Like i said you'll only believe it if you do it yourself.
Me You specifically mentioned universities above. Please give me a link to the papers.
Me I've been interested in theology for decades now. I have read a lot of material on it, discussed it with a lot of people like yourself, even been to church meetings. But I have never seen a thing to show that any religion is true, or even has any value to me. Just saying "it's everywhere" and "I need to find it myself" is pretty weak. You've been making claims that supernatural events (let's stick with the flood right now) are supported by science. Either show me the science or retract that claim, please.
Opponent It's not my fault you can't use Google. I don't think you've researched anything. You don't believe it now, you wouldn't believe it then either. You are just looking to negate people and I'm not buying into to twisted game. The irrefutable proof is out there ESPECIALLY about the flood. People have been dead days and came back healed of whatever killed them too, the reports are everywhere. It's not hard to believe but I know people like you who will always have something negative to say even in the face of Jesus Himself I'd bet you'd argue it wasn't "Real". I won't retract ANYTHING I've said because it's all the truth and I'm appalled you'd even ask that!!!!!! You can move along now bud. I've told you the truth, you choose what you'd like to believe and in the end we'll see who's right, remember this conversation. Blessed are they who believe without seeing.
Me Well, let's stick to the Flood. I have done a lot of searching on this, and I cannot find *one* scientific paper supporting it. My conclusion is there is no science supporting a flood. If you have something I might have missed, can you please provide it.
Me BTW, I am an IT geek, programmer, and web site/app builder. I think my internet skills are pretty good. But, if I have missed something, all you need to do is give me a URL. Is it that hard?
Supporter Agree 100%
Opponent That makes you 100% wrong unfortunately.
Supporter Over 2000 religions on this planet and YOUR god is the only real one. Right?
Opponent Those other "gods" are fallen angels, even The Bible talks about these other "gods". You really need to educate yourself guy.
Opponent Laugh all you like but the ACTUAL EVIDENCE proves you 100% wrong.
Supporter Show me the "evidence" then.
Opponent You don't believe me now, the only way is to do the research yourself and see it and discover it for yourself, then you'll know. There's more factual and scientific evidence and historical evidence for Jesus than anyone else.
Supporter So you can't show me the evidence is what you're saying?
Opponent No that's not what I said at all bud, you're only going to believe yourself tho so go look it up on your own because that's the only way you'll believe it, God bless.
Opponent You can keep laughing or you could go look it all up and know the truth that not only is Jesus real, He's exactly who He said He is. You're not afraid are you, you seem childish and afraid to discover the truth. Jesus will guide you. He loves you too.
Supporter I was raised catholic, went 12 years to a private Christian school and studied a variety of religions since.. I know all I need to know about fairy-tales.. I suggest you pick up a science book.
Opponent You're dead wrong bud. Science backs The Bible and The Resurrection and the historical FACTUAL account of Jesus Christ. You've obviously not studied enuff.
Opponent The only fairy tale here is you telling yourself it isn't real smh dig deeper bud.
Me You keep making the claims that science supports your religious views. I think you should either stop doing that, or be prepared to show us the actual scientific papers you are referring to. Either those papers exist, or you are confused, or you are dishonest.
Opponent I told you many outlets that have done articles about the flood being proven true. You have a super computer in your hand, Google it instead of inciting arguments online because you're too lazy to do it yourself. It's all true. You'll find out soon enuff. Time here is very short bud. God bless.
Me Here's the problem: I have Googled it and I haven't found what you claim. Three possibilities: my search skills are terrible, you are confused, or you just made it all up. There's a very easy solution: just give me a direct URL to the article, paper, or discussion. Why is that so hard? (he says, suspecting he knows the answer)
Opponent It's 100% true so stop lying, you didn't Google it cause if you did you would see the hundreds of article. Stop it already no one is buying it!!
Me OK, I think we have reached a point where we can't go any further. By the way, if you Google it, you will find articles everywhere that show beyond doubt your God doesn't exist. I won't tell you where they are, and if you can't find them it's your fault, OK?
Opponent I Google it and there's thousands of articles that come up that prove you wrong. You'll find out the truth one day. God bless.
Me OK, thanks for the discussion anyway. All I can say is, believe what you want, but please don't pretend it's supported by science; it just makes you look ridiculous. After all, doesn't your crowd value faith?
Opponent There's no "pretending" bud it's fact, it's backed by not only science but ARCHEOLOGY which makes it a concrete fact. Smh. It's sad you can't use Google. Smh. The only one looking ridiculous here is you.
Me OK, I think you're just trolling me now (maybe you were all along). You made a statement and refuse to back it up with evidence, even though you claim this evidence is "everywhere". Get back to me if you are ever prepared to show me what and where it is.
Me You sort of remind me of this: Debating creationists on the topic of evolution [or the Flood, etc] is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.
Opponent Then you need to follow the advise given so you don't look like a pigeon. Google is there for you to learn too. Try it some time. Smh.
Opponent The more you comment the more foolish you look, but please continue without even looking at 1 piece of ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE smh. How foolish can one be smh.
Me It would be really interesting to get a neutral person to look through this discussion and see who really is being foolish. To me, you've made a claim and refused to back it up with evidence, so you're the foolish and/or dishonest one.
Note that I agree with a lot of what Shapiro (a right-wing US commentator) says on politics, but his views on religion are warped by him being a devout Jew.
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