This debate arose after I viewed an item where "Ricky Gervais sat down with Piers Morgan for an extended interview Friday night, talking about everything from his atheism to the newly controversial issue of gun permits for blind people."
Me I often hear religious people defending evil things happening because there will be something better in the "next life". One of the most evil doctrines (there are plenty more) of Christianity, I think.
Supporter Yes, it doesn't encourage improvement or striving for something, better because either god wanted it that way or there's something better coming anyway in the next life. Not a very positive philosophy in my opinion. Plus there's the fact that's it's not true, of course!
Supporter Well yes, there is that. But Jesus wasn't all about love and forgiveness - assuming he existed at all. there was plenty of nasty stuff too (do what I say or go to Hell), especially if you believe certain writers, like Paul.
Supporter I agree with you: your god is evil. That's why I'm happy there is zero evidence he exists!
Supporter Well, OK, whatever. The god you were raised to believe in (and the god billions of people on this planet claim to believe in) is evil. That's why I wouldn't be a follower of that god, even if he did exist.
Supporter And of course god has similar characteristics to man: because god was created in man's image (he was invented by humans).
Opponent Then explain how God is evil? What do you call evil?
Me Good question. I guess evil is deliberately carrying out an action which is agreed to be extremely harmful by sane people. There is a common standard of morality all reasonable people follow. God does not appear to follow this standard.
Me So god being able to help people but not doing it, like letting children die horribly from cancer, would be an example.
Opponent If I do not seek help I may die, but the doctors are to blame.
Me Sorry. I don't quite follow. Doctors are to blame for child cancer? How?
Opponent A child has cancer. The doctors can cure child, but the child didn't go to see the doctor. Who is to blame? The child or the doctor?
Me So you're saying god doesn't cure kids because they don't seek his help? Aren't these kids too young to know? Why would he not just cure them anyway. He must know about them because he's omnipotent. Would a good doctor cure someone if he could, even if they don't ask? Also, there are many people who do ask and get no response.
Opponent There are always questions that we will have from our limited human perspective. I myself wondered why some prayers seem to go unanswered, but I did receive revelation about that. You can take this as you will, but this is what was revealed to me. God can answer your prayers without your knowledge. But to answer all prayers instantly would not teach you to be patient. Patience is essential for teaching righteousness. And a lack of patience is underlying all those that are evil. The correct response is to wait patiently and hold your faith till the end. Not to blame God for whatever happens to you. Think about it. How are you loyal to God if you point your fingers at Him every time something doesn't go your way? Or everytime you don't understand something?
Me I really wonder if you believe something so blatantly nonsensical. It's not that God doesn't always answer prayers, it's that he never does, at least he never answers a prayer of any consequence. Compare this with the example of his alleged interventions in the world described in the Bible: real, undeniable miracles. Why does he not do that any more? And even if we is testing us or teaching us patience, is that a way to justify deliberately letting innocent children suffer? Think about it. Your god is either evil or he doesn't exist. The atheist view that he doesn't exist is really the kindest, because it means we're not ruled by a hideous monster.
Opponent I have personally had quite a few prayers answered. Why do you say God does not perform miracles anymore? Have you ever listened to a testimony before? Oh right, "they're all lying/crazy, Cuz Atheism." You have come to the conclusion that God is either evil or does not exist. And the reason for that is simply because you don't want any of it to be true. I'm sorry but you are wrong on both accounts. God is real and He is by far the best God we could ever hope for. You simply don't understand. You choose to remain ignorant because it's the easy way out. Atheism requires nothing. No effort, no loyalty, no discipline. No learning, no patience. You have simply chosen the easy way out. You can't be bothered.
Me Yeah, it would be so easy if personal experience and opinions meant something. But that's how people got things wrong for years, which is why we now have science. People with many different belief systems all say their personal experiences have truth. They can't all be right... but they can all be wrong. If your god answers your personal prayers why doesn't be answer some of the big ones? Have you seen the incredibly sad images of people in poor countries praying to their (also your) god for help with floods, famine, etc, and getting nothing? Where is your god then? And those (often Christian) people praying for help for their child with cancer. No response. Yeah, an entity who could help those people but doesn't is pure evil. I won't even get started on your other claims about atheism because I don't want to let you distract the debate from the key point. But we could start a separate discussion on that later, if you want to.
Opponent People die every day. You've chosen floods and cancer for a reason. It's an attempt at emotional manipulation. But what I want you to consider is that maybe there are things at play here that we don't fully understand. Even the nature of life and death itself is a mystery to us. Has either of us has experienced our own death? Yet death is the focus of your argument. Think of the vastness of the universe relative to how far we have travelled. We should we make our decisions based upon science, when we know less than 1% of what's out there? The argument that God is evil does not make sense logically. Because according to the scriptures, God gave His only begotten Son to die for our sins on the cross. Why would an "evil God" intend to help us? Why doesn't this "evil God" just kill us all right now?
Me So you're using the old "god is mysterious" defence? That's like taking my sick child to a doctor who says "sorry, I could cure her but I won't, but I can't tell you why because you wouldn't understand". Is that acceptable to you? It isn't to me. If a doctor did that I would call him evil, just like your god. This stuff about Jesus dying for our sins is total BS. Why was that necessary? Why did go require him to be tortured? Why couldn't he just forgive us without that? Maybe because he's evil.
Opponent It was to set a precedence. Do you understand what a precedence is, in terms of the courts system? His death on the cross was the precedence. No, I'm not saying "God is mysterious" I'm saying you don't know 1% of what God knows yet somehow you seem to think that waggling your finger at an all knowing, eternal being, and the creator of life and the universe is a smart idea. But that's atheism for you. Nothing smart ever comes from it.
Me I think you mean a "precedent", and yes, I know what it is, but can't see the relevance to the behaviour of a "loving" god. So basically you are saying that we have to go along with god no matter how he behaves? If he is going to be evil, how do we know we haven't been deceived and are really following the bad guy? After all, according to some estimates, your god killed 33 million people (according to the BIble) and Satan just 10 (and even that is disputed). Maybe you have got it all mixed up? That would explain why your god is so evil.
Opponent Yes, sorry I mean precedent. You don't get it and neither did those that crucified Him. You see some things in the bible that make you go "huh?! What's going on!?" It used to happen to me all the time. Like why God told people to sacrifice goats. But once you understand it, it does make sense. I can show you what the biblical understanding of the these kinds of things boils down to. I doubt you would be genuinely interested. But if you are I can point you in the right direction. I assume you are talking about the flood. As I understand it is said that all flesh was corrupted aside from Noah and his family. I think this means genetically corrupted. The old Testament is all about securing a pure bloodline for Jesus Christ to be born through. Once you read the bible with that in mind you begin to understand things a bit better. Lots of people died and it's a very bloody era. But it was all for a purpose.
Me I would still like an answer to my question. Here's what I'm asking. You said that god can do whatever he likes because he's the creator, and we don't have the right to judge him. So I asked how do we know he's really the good god he is supposed to be? How do you know you haven't been deceived, because not being able to question your master's goodness is a common way for tyranny to start. And do you really believe that killing every man, woman, and child (and innocent animals for that matter) on the planet is OK, just so that be can follow some crazy plan involving Jesus' bloodline? Can you not see how evil this is? Imagine if some person, or another god had done this. You know you would condemn it. Why do you let your god away with being a hideous monster?
Me And, I don't just mean the Flood. Here's a small sample of the genocide your evil god has been involved with (according to the Bible): the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, 7th Egyptian Plague, every Egyptian firstborn child, for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf, massacre of the Anakim, the Ethiopians, forcing Midianite soldiers to kill each other, plague as punishment for David's census, Midianite massacre, ... Need I go on? Evil!
Opponent Well, think about it. How can a God who can create all of this be evil? Evil is irrational, impatient, chaotic and ultimately idiotic. No God with such traits could create anything. I've been around enough evil people in my life to know that they are incredibly dumb. A God that is perfectly good is the only thing that makes sense due to the intelligence that is necessary for creation. It wasn't just "some crazy plan" it was a total and complete "checkmate" against the evil in this world. One key difference between our perspectives here is that you believe in death as the end of life. But death to my perspective is only physical. By that I mean you can't really "die" anyway. That is not to downplay the sacrifices that were made to achieve our salvation. But when you're talking about God He is really just moving people around. God is not subject to our personal sense of morality. He doesn't answer to us. We answer to Him. Don't decieve yourself into thinking that you and God are as equals.
Me In some ways that makes it worse. He creates this world, with conscious, intelligent people, then destroys them all whether they are guilty or not. Here's an analogy: I create an ant habitat, then torture them by burning them with a magnifying glass. Am I good? And this "checkmate" against evil. How is that fair? Everyone was killed, whether they were evil or not. Then you get back to the old "we can't judge god" argument. Well, maybe he doesn't want to be judged, but I am going to anyway. Religion teaches us moral standards, then says "you apply these to everyone except god". Yeah, thanks god. Great example you're setting!
Opponent Who wasn't evil? Sodom and Gomorrah, Evil. The Canaanites, Evil. Those in the days of Noah, Evil. What is confusing you?
Me So everyone, even children and unborn babies were evil? And all the animals caught in the event? Evil? All of them? Or maybe there was only one evil here: your vile god.
Opponent And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. On one hand you label God evil for His inaction. On the other hand you label God evil for taking too much action. In your mind you cannot fully reject God unless He is evil. And that is what you want to accomplish because fully rejecting God is your primary motive. "God doesn't do enough!... God does too much!" What God does or doesn't do is irrelevant to you. You would reject God all the same no matter what and we both know that. Tell me I'm wrong.
Me So you're saying that babies, children, animals, even unborn babies were all wicked and sinful? Can you not see how despicable this hideous dogma is. And then your god has the cheek to say he's a god of love? Come on, this is evil.
Me If there was any objective proof at all that your god existed (there is none) I would have to take him seriously. But because he is so evil I would probably have to take him on as an enemy. I know I cannot win against a god, but it would still be the right thing to do. Grovelling obedience to a hideous despot is not my style.
Opponent Sure, if you can't be bothered to think any deeper about it then you can come to that conclusion. I think it's safe to say that there was something very wrong going on. The scriptures say specifically "All flesh was corrupted". Which makes me think there was somekind of genetic manipulation going on. Essentially altering the form that God created. How else do you fix that problem? Tell me if you know a better way.
Me How would I fix it? Sheesh! I'm God. I can fix it any way I freakin' like. But hey, let's just kill everybody, that will do!
Opponent You don't even believe that God is evil, I can tell by your responses. You are simply hoping He is evil for peace of mind. I assure you that you are wrong.
Me Of course I don't think he's evil. I don't think he exists at all! All I'm saying is that the myths about him make him look evil, and if he did exist he would not be a nice person... err, I mean deity.
Opponent Unsurprisingly, you criticize all day yet offer no better solutions. Athiesm is at it's core an immature mindset which eventually exposes itself.
Me An alternative to what? Believing silly myths about an evil monster god? How about this: growing up and admitting the invisible man in the sky is no more real that Santa Claus. How about following philosophy and science and truth. Sure beats acting like a child and believing a fairy tale.
Opponent Do you have any new material or do you just repeat what others say? How about you offer a solution to the problem; namely, an altered genetic code in almost all and humans (barring one man and his family). Provide an actual argument or scurry off like a rat.
Me Well, there's nothing much new in this area is there? I mean, the problem of evil is a classic in philosophy/theology. I really just state the points which resonate best with my way of thinking, if I'm repeating stuff you have heard before I'm just surprised you don't have better answers.
Opponent I'm referring to your attempts at mockery. Instead of putting your money where your mouth is and honestly answering the question (about a topic that you, yourself have raised). You come at me with bland mockery I've heard a thousand times before. Run along, coward.
Me Well, all insults aside, you will be aware that the problem of evil - which is essentially what this is - has been an issue in theology for 1000s of years. And all the attempted explanations are very poor, in my opinion. Essentially your explanation comes back to: God can do whatever he wants and we have no right to question him. This seems like a very dangerous attitude to me.
Opponent In what way is that evil?
Me Stopping people from making the most of their real life, and encouraging them to ignore problems, by using a false promise of a life after death.
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