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Helen Clark Denouncement Debate

This debate/discussion occurred on 19 Jan 2023 at 17:37:11...

A debate regarding an MSM headline: "Former Prime Minister Helen Clark has denounced the level of "hatred and vitriol" Jacinda Ardern faced as PM, saying excessive polarisation is making politics unattractive. Helen Clark denounces "hatred, vitriol" aimed at Ardern. The comments come in the wake of Ardern's shock resignation announcement".

Me Well if Cindy had governed the country competently and fairly there wouldn't be so much dislike of her.

On social media, this comment got 216 supporting reactions and 23 opposing.

Opponent There is a tangible difference between dislike and the offensive, toxic rhetoric that has become commonplace in reference to this person. I am confident, none of these people spouting their garbage about the current, prime minister would or could have the nouse to be in her shoes and have no confidence in any of them or their abilities to do her job with any amount of competency themselves, whatsoever.

Opponent Thank you. Well explained.

Me Can you give me an example of this "garbage" which would not also be used on other controversial politicians, like Trump for example?

I don't know how many times I have asked for examples of these comments which Ardern received, which weren't very similar to those received by other public figures. I have never received a single example. People seem to be talking about somethingthey have no knowledge of. I guess they're just repeating the nonsense they see in the mainstream media.

Opponent Can you at least get her name right? You probably think she was unfair to reduce the tax on petrol or was it because not everyone got the cost of living payments?

Me Those are mere details. My biggest problems are her inability to fix the problems she said she would (crime, poverty, housing), the idiotic 3 waters nonsense, the gross incompetence and money wasting trying to merge RNZ and TVNZ, etc...

Supporter And treated everyone with respect not contempt like the protesters of which she had no remorse.

Opponent Her name is Jacinda, not Cindy. And whilst she isn't perfect, not everyone would agree with your assessment.

I'm sure using the somewhat derogatory name "Cindy" is also seen as misogynistic, even though we have had similar names for all our leaders, and many have been quite insulting!

Me Of course they wouldn't. This is politics; not everyone agrees with any assessment.

Opponent Well the top jobs going if you want it? It sounds like a great job with lots of perks, including "hatred and vitriol".

Me Unfortunately, the way the system works, only people who shouldn't be doing the job (narcissistic control freaks) are ever likely to get it.

Supporter She won the last election, by a landslide. Where was the dislike then?

Supporter She has since introduced very unpopular legislation that they did not go to the electorate with. 3 waters for example. People feel betrayed.

Opponent Council owns and runs the water or central govt owns and runs the water. It's still us the taxpayers who are also ratepayers. Same same. Given the number of Councils providing substandard water, probably a good idea for central.

Supporter Don't be so naive. 3 waters is a treaty settlement dressed up as water infrastructure reform. Hence the co governance with the power of veto built in. You are blind if you can't see that. Why do you think they tried to make it that.

Opponent Sooo clean water comes out of the tap? Sweet.

Me That was before the extreme and unpopular policies she has tried to introduce since then.

Opponent Yet she still held her position as preferred prime minister in all polls.

Me I'm fairly sure her popularity has been sinking steadily for a year now.

Opponent Yes, but my initial comment is still accurate.

Me OK, I'll give you that, but the direction she was heading wan't good. How long before Luxon became most preferred?

Opponent We will never know.

Opponent Another misogynist.

God, this stuff is tiresome. You criticise a female public figure, yioou are a misogynist. Make the same criticism about a male leader and no one says a thing. It's just ignorant and lazy.

Me Oh please. Don't be so lazy. Female politicians should be open to criticism as much as male.

Opponent [A puke emoji, followed by a clown]

Opponent You are a horrible person, could you have done better. I was witness to Whaakari and I was so proud of her.

White Island (also known as Whaakari) is a volcanic island in New Zealand where an eruption resulted in several deaths and severe injuries to visiting tourists.

Supporter Can you explain what she actually contributed to White Island?

Opponent Whanau, she was there reassuring everyone.

Opponent If you can understand the meaning of whanau then you can understand without explanation...

Me People who are impressed at (fake or otherwise) shows of emotion would like her. People who prefer positive, fair, and constructive action, not so much.

Opponent Way better than John Keyhole.

I presume this is a refrence to a previous prime minister, John Key, who had a similar style to Ardern (all BS and little substance), but lead the other main party here.

Me Well, that's debatable. I do agree though, that JK was a similar type of politician: all BS and no real depth.

Opponent There is a tangible difference between dislike and the offensive, toxic rhetoric that has become commonplace in reference to this person. I am confident, none of these people spouting their garbage about the current prime minister would use it against others.

And I am very confident they would. I spend a lot of time on social media, and I have never seen anything out of the ordinary aimed at Ardern. Also, as I said above, no one can give me an example of a particularly toxic attack against her.

Opponent Can you at least get her name right? You probably think she was unfair to reduce the tax on petrol or was it because not everyone got the cost of living payments?

Me Those are mere details. My biggest problems are her inability to fix the problems she said she would (crime, poverty, housing), the idiotic 3 waters nonsense, the gross incompetence and money wasting trying to merge RNZ and TVNZ, etc.

Supporter And treated everyone with respect not contempt like the protesters of which she had no remorse.

Opponent In the beginning, these attacks on her were an orchestrated effort by a particular faction. Then the sheeples joined in and her entire journey as our PM has seen these sheeples continue with it until this day. Watch carefully now. If those same sheeple don't get what ever the hell they want, who ever is next will get the same treatment, be it the Labour Party or another.

Me I'm sure there are irrational and unfair attacks in her, just like any public figure, but the majority I see are for very good reasons.

Opponent Good reasons don't give people the right to say what they like about her, or anyone else for that matter! Sorry Owen but the majority of the attacks haven't been for any other reason than sheer nastiness, ignorance and failure to think things through before hammering the keyboard.

Me Well do you have any proof of that claim? I follow a lot of political commentary on-line and I would say 80% - 90% is justified. although obviously, some isn't. Remember Ardern is a very divisive and controversial politician.

Opponent She did a good job through difficult times no reason for the hate and abuse she gets I hope she has a happy future.

What hate and abuse? Whenever I challenge these people to produce something that is any worse than that aimed at other, male leaders there's a sudden silence.

Opponent Are you putting your hand up to do better?

Me Well, I'm sure I could, because I would base my decisions on fairness and facts. I admit I would be no match for her on the emotional stuff though.

Opponent I look forward to see your campaign promises then!

Me First one: free beer for everyone!

Me Oh, wait. Cindy messed up our CO2 supplies, so no beer. Sorry!

Food grade CO2 was previously supplied from an oil refinery here in New Zealand. Primarily for political reasons it was shut down and the alternative plant required maintenance, meaning CO2 was in short supply, especially for beer production!