Entry 441, on 2006-12-11 at 17:32:04 (Rating 3, Comments)
An old friend of mine recently visited and we got into an interesting debate which I want to discuss here. This friend became seriously tied up with a modern fundamentalist church a few years back and there has always been an uneasy truce between us where we carefully avoided the subject of religion, because I am an atheist and he knew that. I enjoy debating religious people, but I won't start the debate myself. I prefer for the other person to start it, then I leap in and "take no prisoners"!
I was just helping him with a new Mac he had bought (he may have bad judgement in his world view, but not in his choice of computers) when he noticed a folder on my disk called "Evolution 101" which contained podcasts about evolution. So he made the big mistake by saying "you don't believe all that stuff about evolution do you?" So that was it. It was all on, and I was surprised at how lacking in knowledge and reasonable thought he was.
He's a fairly bright person, but you can't help anyone who just wants to be ignorant. At one point he actually said he would never believe evolution no matter what facts were presented, because he just didn't want to believe we evolved from "single cell amoebas". So he basically admitted he wasn't interested in facts. I am an atheist, but at least I am prepared to change if the evidence changes. Just show me the facts.
At one point I took him through a few steps to show that he really did believe evolution. It went a bit like this.. First, do you agree that DNA determines how a living thing develops. Its hard to disagree with that. Then I said, do parents pass their DNA to their offspring? Of course. Do mutations happen? That's hard to deny. Are some mutations beneficial? This one is a bit tougher. If mutations are random (some are) we would expect the occasional lucky error. I showed a few examples where this did happen, so eventually he had to agree. OK, so would you expect an individual with some advantage over the rest of its species to have more offspring? On average, yes. So would that new type of individual become more prevalent? Yes. That's evolution through natural selection, you just agreed it does happen!
That's when the usual excuses appear, such as maybe that happens but it can't be responsible for all life on Earth. I say "why not" and the answer is usually "its just not possible". I detect the argument from personal incredulity here. So you don't think its possible because of some nebulous reasons, but its accepted practically unopposed by modern science. I don't want to invoke the argument from authority here, but when such a huge majority of experts agree on something, it is significant.
At this point I think he got a bit discouraged and changed the subject. Maybe he knows he's wrong but just can't accept it. No doubt, once he returns to his church, and is overwhelmed by its lies and propaganda, his faith will be strong again. Its like he's saying: "I've made up my mind, please don't confuse me with the facts!" I called this blog entry "blind faith" but I often have to ask myself: is there are other type?
Comment 1 (285) by SBFL on 2007-01-10 at 20:12:35:
Since this guy is an old friend, perhaps could have desisted from the usual 'take no prisoners' approach. Didn't look like he was wanting to start WW3 with "you don't believe all that stuff about evolution do you?". A tactful reply would have suited maybe? Are you still friends? Regardless I assume he is now somewhat humiliated since you obviously knew more about your side of the argument than he did about his.
I know you love to paint those of faith as close-minded, but I think that's a case of 'the pot calling the kettle black'. You appear to have blatant prejudices with comments like "once he returns to his church, and is overwhelmed by its lies and propaganda, his faith will be strong again." It is clear you have a bee in your bonnet (sorry, last cliche) and thus this results in less credibility given to future comments of yours.
Comment 2 (294) by OJB on 2007-01-11 at 17:06:12:
I don't debate religion with people to humiliate them or to try to break long-standing friendships. Its a debate, not a fist fight or a war! And yes, I did destroy him, first because I was right and he was wrong (there is a huge amount of evidence for evolution and practically none for any alternative), and second because I knew a lot more about it (religious people tend to be ignorant of the facts of science, in many cases deliberately, and are often also ignorant of their own religion).
People of faith are close-minded. That's what faith is: believing something without requiring evidence and without questioning it. I have spent a lot of time looking at the evidence for both sides, and currently strongly support evolution. If the evidence changes I will change my mind because I have no emotional tie to science. I just want the truth. Faith is not a path to the truth.
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